Trinidad Express
January 10th 2007
Opposition Leader Kamla Persad-Bissessar says killers should be hanged.
“I believe that we need to seriously examine the actual implementation of the death penalty.
“Yes, I am speaking about bringing back hanging. We live in drastic times now and drastic measures are necessary,” she said at the United National Congress’s Monday night People’s Forum at Gasparillo.
Persad-Bissessar said it was past the stage of counselling hardened, cold-blooded killers and supporting them with taxpayers’ money, as the People’s National Movement government has done.
“We need to focus more on victims’ rights and victims’ needs,” she said.
She said crime had reached such a state that criminals had made extortion a new business.
“Businessmen are being forced to pay these criminals bribes to keep them from murdering, or raping, or kidnapping their relatives,”she said, adding that it would take only drastic measures to deal with them.
“We are a nation under siege. While the criminals roam free in search of their prey, we huddle, petrified, behind burglar-proofed windows in self-imposed imprisonment,” she said.
She said when the UNC was in government, it dealt aggressively with crime and that the party’s current plans to solve crime included bringing in external experts.
This, she said, was the reason for bringing in former New York police commissioner Bernard Kerik.
Do you support hanging as a means of solving crime? Tell us what you think.
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161079737
i was wondering when you all would wake up and smell coffee,these guys should be shot first and ask question after. it is dam shame to see what is going on in Trinidad and Tobago, people are so afraid to go to trinidad for carnival, every morning before i go to work i read the news all see is bad news when it is going to stop, for me i am 100% for hanging, and PNM GOVERNMENT, what hell are doing, give the police power to kill those sucks if they kill they should be kill too, everybody in toronto is talking about crime infectious country,TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO have name in outer world . HANG THEM HANG THEM HANG THEM.
All “Western Civilized Nations”, ( except the USA) have abandoned the death penalty as a crime fighting tool because it does not work. As a vengeance tool, it probably works, but puts the state on the same level with the lowlifes who take others’ lives. If criminals feared the death penalty, there will be no murders. Statistics show a sharp rise in killings after Panday reported to the BBC that “Hanging Never Lefrt Us” in 1998. The Chadee Nine were hanged one weekend in 1999, and we have escalated murders, and kidnappings that become murders, ever since. It is as if blood is crying for blood, and will not be satisfied. All nations who call the name of God in their declarations of who they are, and their guiding principles, should abandon the death penalty and try other means, like working with the conditions that lead to murder.
Um……how did these All “Western Civilized Nations”, ( except the USA) achieve their levels of development? By hanging, beheading ,draw and quarter and on and on. Weed before you seed.Thin the herd. As in dogs with a viscous bloodline the strain must be eliminated. Kill all those sociopath pests ruining our serenity in my homeland. Thank you.
It is true that Trinidad and Tobago has exhibited a high level of criminal activities especially murders within recent times. Certainly one murder is one too many and should not be an accepted fact in any society. This may have resulted due to numerous factors. We have parents failing in their responsibilities to nature our young children to love and respect themselves and others. We have politicians playing the blame games and seeking their own personal interests. High unemployment levels,and lack of effective recreational/social activities for after school programs especially in the povety stricken constituencies. A Police service which lack community policing with questionable moral and a Prison system which primary objective is to punish and not rehabilitation.It should also be noted that recently in the U.S especially New York where Mr. Bernard Kerik is from, numerous convicted individuals had their convictions revoked as a result of false testimony by witnesses and police officers. Who knows how many innocent people may have been executed? In conclusion during the Panday’ administration in 1999 Dole Chadee and his criminal gang were executed. Ms Opposition -Leader the murder rate was not lowered it esculated.
OMG……… and since the “showboat” hanging of those 9 how many more swang from the gallows? If a person knows they may hang from a rope they will be less more inclined to pull the trigger.So all your conclusions are to naught.The death penalty is the LAW of this land.FACT. So um to be blunt, its bleeding hearts such as you who have us living in cages and shopsand businesses looking like GITMO. Some people are just built to be COLD blooded killers and no amount of prayers or whatever you waste your time on is going to change them.Regular enforcement of our LAW is guaranteed to make a killer think twice.Bro, thats how the west was one, thats how Brittania became civilized.
Capital punishment is no deterrent for murder. There are two kinds of murders – those who premeditate and those who do not. The ones who don’t will do it in a fit of rage or because they are mentally ill. Either way, they are not thinking about the consequences of their actions at the time, much less any laws they are breaking. If a man finds his wife in bed with another man then in a fit of anger he may kill both of them. At that very moment, he is not thinking of anything else. That doesn’t make it right but is demonstrates that Hanging is no deterrent in cases such as this.
The second type of murderer premeditates. He plans not only what he is going to do but how he is going to hide the crime. The reason he does that is because he thinks he can get away with it. If he thinks he can get away, then he does not see himself ever being punished because he will get away. So Capital Punishment will not deter these sorts either.
Trinidad’s laws are stupid in that once convicted of murder, the penalty has to be hanging. There needs to be a differentiation of the different types of murders committed. When convicted criminals keep appealing their murder sentences, that is a drain on the legal system. To hire lawyers and pay judges and other costs like food and room for sequestered juries, the costs add up to far more than a length or rope. It is cheaper to put them in jail for life and that way, if anyone is ever falsely committed, then an innocent person would not have been hanged.
Comments like those from “reason” don’t make sense and actually kill themselves in their own logic. If it’s executions that god these developed countries where they are today then they should still have executions so that their way of life isn’t threatened.
Hanging is the solution. The solution is to remove the corrupt element from the police service. Stop hiring illiterates into the police force. Make the police force an actual career goal and not something only the people who get 3’s and 4’s in CXC want to get into. They need to change the attitude of Trinidadians. That has to be done from young. So school teachers also have to be qualified persons – not people with A-Levels alone. If police do not let up on criminals then crime will be reduced. Instead of sitting in the station and watching TV or using police vehicles to run personal errands, they should actually be out on the streets invading the drug infested area and giving all law breakers a hard time.
Blah Blah Blah………….NY state re-instated the death penalty and guess what………………..um Times Square went from a shooting gallery to prime real estate.Piracy was reduced by many a rascal swinging from a yard-arm. Dodge City was calmed by the barrel of a gun.
Mr Ali you say the police should enforce the laws.Well guess what? The DEATH PENALTY is the LAW of this nation.You think you can reform a sociopath or a baby raper.Guess what pal. THATS THE WAY GOD MADE THEM. They can’t change no matter what you do.Its like being born gay.
Lemme tell you what. The cowardly scum dwelling on Death Row should ALL be meeting their ends.They should learn from Gary Gilmore or Timothy Mc Veigh, why rot in a cell?
Its people like you who let killers loose after you think they’re reformed or saved.Before you go on your soul saving mission I suggest you WEED out the PICKER BUSHES. “If it’s executions that god these developed countries where they are today then they should still have executions so that their way of life isn’t threatened.” BRO that statement makes absolutely NO SENSE.,thats why they DON”T have to execute any more.They eradicated most of the virulent strain.
See Mr Ali you can’t deal with hardened criminals with kids gloves. You try to tackle hard crime with your academic reasoning and your high-faluted ideas of reformation. BALOGNA.
Your right about the police service and these ridiculous laws. Why put a surveillance camera up when the tape can’t be used in court, driving with a beer in your hand is legal but not having a shirt on is an infraction, an aged DANCE HALL ACT that restricts the use of colorful language in any instance um……………and they want people to come make movies here?
Bro unless your a sociopath you can’t understand how they think. If the death penalty is the LAW of our land why are you knocking it. You only want the laws YOU agree with enforced?
Me thinks that you’re prolly opposed to hangings due to some religous conviction. THE FACT IS PAL, ITS THE LAW. Until it’s repealed I think you’re being very hippocratic. The death penalty has tamed many a land. And to be quite frank SIR we really don’t need any more lily-livered approaches to the scourge stalking this land.We need the IRON HAND of JUSTICE, BTW logic is what its all about, KILL a KILLER and he never KILLS again.
THE EXECUTIONERS SONG. HANG EM HIGH.Riaz you would make a wonderful social worker, but a horrid police officer.Check up on the exploits of the San Fernando CSU. 0 but you would probably say they’re to tough on the poor little mis-understood bandits.
The Debate over the merits of hanging(capital punishment)has endured for years,and continue to be an extremely indecisive and complicated issue. Hanging can be defined as the execution of a criminal by the state. In simple form legalized murder. This is an extravagant public policy that produces virtually no benifits, only encourages vengeances as a way to over come grief. Does it really provide satisfactory for the victim? Hangings was practiced in Trinidad and Tobago, which has always taken a strong stand in fairness, needs to reevaluate our criminal justice system. Hanging does not benifit society, the economy or the legal system itself.
Most people assume that a life imprisonment sentence is more expensive than hanging. However, when all relevant costs are taken into account, the reversal of Capital murder trials drag on much longer than those without death penalty. The cost build up quickly, due to the numerous appeals and execution dates. The time it takes Judges, Prosecuters, Public Defenders and the courts.
One reason that cause me to side aganist hangings is the issue people being put to death.Such punishment wuold be inevtable will be inflicted on the innocent.
As for Mr/Ms Reason, you are intitled to your personal openions, but not your openions of FACTS:- New York Times Square was not cleaned up due to the re-introduction of the death penalty.
This area began its renaissance during Mayor David Dinkins administration in the early 1990’s when the death penalty was still abolished, which contiued into Mayor Rudy Guilliani’s term. Even though the the death penalty was later reinstated, no one has yet to be executed in New York.
Trinidad is a chaotic nation.So there’s no sense in using the examples of other countries to say what the effect would be.
What cleaned up NYC was the fascist tactics of Rudy and Bernard “WE OWN THE NIGHT”.Dinkins “Mr Howard Beach”? Executions do benefit society, as proven in every developed country. THATS HOW THAT GOT TO THEIR LEVELS OF DEVELOPMENT.
Thanks to holy rollers like Mr Riaz we have to live in burglar proofed enclosures. We cant even have sliding glass doors anymore.
Draconian measures are needed, I can bet Mr Ali has never served in any military or law enforcement position in his life.
Mr Ali answer me this. Why did NY state re-instate the death penalty.
REPEAT. WHY DID NY STATE REINSTATE THE DEATH PENALTY? LOL .
BTW Innocent people are dying everyday due to the lack of the enforcement of the death penalty.
The murderous blood lines need to be terminated, just ask any dog breeder.
You need the Old Testament approach before you you try the approach of The New Testament.
Whomever posted “reason” with the beginning sentence that reads “Blah Blah Blah………….NY state re-instated the death penalty and guess what………………..um” Do you really and honestly believe what you wrote? Well, if you do, you totally have the right to believe and write what’s on your mind. In my observation, that was absolute nonsense. READING and KNOWLEDGE is very fundamental. As the bible quotes, “My people perish because of a lack of knowledge” You sir are clearly writing because of anger and emotions, not of rationality and knowledge. Sir do not ever, ever let anyone hear or read from you an unintelligent statement. SILENCE is golden. Point in question (1)”THATS THE WAY GOD MADE THEM” that sir is blasphemy. Man was created in God’s image, righteous, pure, honest and outstanding. However, MAN made a choice to disobey and walk the path of unrighteousness. We are NOT born gay nor are we born evil. The choices we make in life, the lessons we learn from our environment, determines who we become in life. (2) I do agree with you on the point of Law of the land. If it is the law, it needs to be enforced or repealed. (3)”they DON”T have to execute any more. They eradicated most of the virulent strain” are you kidding me? It is proven fact that executions are not a CRIME deterrent. Executions are only one form of punishment. It DOES NOT solve, nor deter crime. In the U.S., some states continue to execute criminals, and it has not prevented murders. Death row is full. The problem has not been eradicated. Most murders are due to mental lapses, caused by rage and emotions. During rage, the last thing on your mind is, “I BETTER STOP OR THE GOVERNMENT WILL HANG ME”. Of course, there are instances where evil people PLAN on killing to cover up their tracks and for entertainment, in hopes of not being caught. In both cases, there must be some form of punishment; unfortunately, these problems will ALWAYS be around as long as there is life on earth.
My opinion: He who is without sin cast the first stone, does not mean, DO NOT PUNISH. Man was given authority to govern and punish in this world system. My problem with the system is it is flawed. When we look at the Trinidad justice system, an innocent man can much more easily be executed and no one will ever know. Corruption is rampant in all segments of the justice system. There are no checks and balances to ensure justice is swift and justified. The laws are pre historic; there are no standards on evidence gathering, so evidence is easily tainted or misplaced, there is no integrity, and neutrality.
To resume hanging, is not going to deter crime. What is needed is a COLLECTIVE effort by both the GOVERNMENT and the PEOPLE to deter crime. The responsibilities of the government are to update our laws, (e.g. heavier sentences, wire taps, allowing law enforcement officers to carry weapons at all time, requiring law enforcement officers to be law enforcers on duty or off duty..Etc) screen, hire and properly train law enforcement officials, modernize the justice system, (e.g. computerize, data bases, equipment, machinery) protect eye-witnesses, jail persons that commit perjury under oath, promote according to ability not length of service, just to name a few. The responsibilities of the people are, to stand up for your rights, stop hiding and living in fear, stop paying ransom and negotiating with criminals, (as hard as that may be, you only encourage their behavior)take notice of your environment and report suspicious activity, testify in court, GET INVOLVED !!!! (It’s impossible for law enforcement to be in every place at the same time)
Last but not least, WE NEED TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER. LOVE CURES ALL.
Mr “reason” unlike you who write based upon emotion and mistake your opinions for fact, I expressed my point of view based on research – apparently the same research that N.G. Alfred read. So, no it is not based upon any religious beliefs I have. As I said in my first post, the death penalty does not deter murders. It serves as a deterrent only to the one who receives it. Just as effective a deterrent as locking him up for life. The deterrent is if the police actually catch the criminals and we know how inefficient Trinidad police are. They will catch one man and blame him for all the unsolved cases they have which leads me to believe that there are probably a lot of innocent people in jail and on death row. That alone should be enough to make any decent human being rethink the death penalty. It only serves as a form of revenge.
And you are right, I have never served in law enforcement or the military – why would I? Military men are trained to follow orders without question and not think on their own nor be open to reason.
Your screen name is an oxymoron. Your arguments for the death penalty are the ever witty “blah blah blah” and comparing humans to breeding dogs. Humans have the ability to think for themselves and have a conscience unlike dogs. In the US, there are more serial killers than any other place on earth. By your logic, the death penalty should either deter them from killing or have weeded them out as the US is older than Canada and should have had a longer history of enforcing the death penalty. But yet in Canada, (where there is no death penalty) their murder count is less than twice that of Trinidad’s for 2005 even though their population is over 32 million and a good portion of that population migrants from form underdeveloped and developing countries in Asia and Eastern Europe. So who weeded these migrant out?
to quote you:
“Your right about the police service and these ridiculous laws. ”
and in the very next paragraph:
“Me thinks that you’re prolly opposed to hangings due to some religous conviction. THE FACT IS PAL, ITS THE LAW. Until it’s repealed I think you’re being very hippocratic.”
So tell me, which laws are ridiculous or who is the hypocrite?
My purpose of writing this is not to change your views but to offer one point of view to the many readers out there whose minds are open to different and new ways of thinking.
Alfred the bible-thumper has made the scene. People are born gay its in their genetic make up, just like sheep. And people are born bad, it’s a defect.
Ask the late Jeff Dhamer or POGO the clown. Keep your scripture for your church. “Render unto Caeser “, Its cuz of old tired dinosaursc like you making descions we are in such a quandry.O BTW I’m writing from knowledge and experience unlike a sanctimonious holier than thou view-point.
What sir is a FACT, is the death penalty is the LAW of T&T. So its you who has an opinion. I simply want the LAW enforced. Now who’s on the wrong side of the fence?
ANSWER ME THIS.
why did ny state re-instate the death penalty……lol.. u guys crack me up LMAO
When last were the laws of Trinidad and Tobago revised to reflect a compassionate society that values its people? It seems to me that we have laws on the book that have been there since the British Governor, Thomas Picton, a knight no less, hung that thirteen year old girl up by the thumbs for allegedly stealing from “a Spanish Gentleman” whose sex slave she was.(detailed by Cudjoe in Beyond Boundaries) The death penalty belongs in those times. Free people are free to sit together as people and revise laws for the common good. None of the restored indigenous cultures I know of, has a death penalty. A human is too valuable for killing one because he killed another. The white man’s law, wherever it was instituted to subjugate another people, practised the death penalty. It was how Christ died, on trumped up charges, under Roman law. It is how thousands of Iraqis are dying weekly.
My people are called upon to think of new ways of working together, not the old ways handed down to us that said the life of a non-white person was essentially worthless. This is what the state confirms with the death penalty. Is this the best we can do after three thousand or more years of recorded history?
That is all I ask. If the answer is YES, then the state and its people need to admit that we have not only inherited the barbaric practices of the past. We have become The Barbarians.We do not think for ourselves.
“Reason” As I stated before, READING is fundamental, KNOWLEDGE is power. The emotional ranting and raving makes no sense. In my previous post, I agreed with you on your point that if it is the law of the land, it needs to be enforced or repealed. So your continuous references of the following; “What sir is a FACT, is the death penalty is the LAW of T&T” is agreed upon. No one is questioning what is written law of the land. What is in question is whether the laws need to be changed and whether hanging is a deterrent to crime. Your opinion is welcomed because it gives insight on how others view life, and the issues at hand. However, I do not agree with your other “points”, or lack of constructive contribution. I love debates, but they must be constructive and intelligible. FYI, I am not a “bible-thumper” but I will take that as a compliment. I am not an “old tired dinosayac”, just a young, educated, and knowledgeable man. There is no such thing as gay genetic. How can God refer to men lying with men as an abomination, and he created them that way? That will mean he is an unjust GOD, which he is not. In your text, you expose so much ignorance; it makes me concerned about the future of any child I bring into this world or my personal future.
To answer your question:
“why did ny state re-instate the death penalty……lol.. u guys crack me up LMAO” The state of NY re-instated the death penalty as a form of punishment, to deter crime. In NY there are individuals in government who believe like you, that the death penalty deters crime. The death penalty has not deterred crime in NY because people continue to kill each other in gang violence, drug transactions, robberies, and family disputes. Just a few years ago one guy gunned down two NY police detectives in their patrol car without thinking; he will be put to death if he did it. Two undercover officers were gunned down in a drug sting by a gang member during a drug buy. Do you think he cared about the re-instating of the death penalty? The stories go on and on. Another point to note is, according to NY state law and many other states in the US, in order to proceed with a capital punishment case, the prosecution have to prove it was PREMEDITATED murder for a criminal to receive the death penalty. All other murder cases, which far out number premeditated cases, the punishment is twenty (25) years to life in prison, either with or without a possibility of parole. So in essence, there are more people sitting on life sentences in prison, than are actually being put to death. So your argument of NY being safer or a role model for the death penalty working is full of holes and holds no water.
On a personal note, please use spell check if you are going to use words that you obviously do not use and have no clue how to spell them, but as you stated you are “writing from knowledge and experience unlike a sanctimonious holier than thou view-point”
LOL pure comedy.
Have a great day Sir.
I do not know which is more appalling, “Reason’s” apparent lack of understanding of genetics or his inability to reason.
Like N.G. Alfred, I too also enjoy a good debate but only with persons who can put across their thoughts backed by hard evidence and in a coherent manner. Not something that sounds like it’s from a high school debating club.
To ask us why NY reinstituted the death penalty is not an argument for the death penalty. You are looking at a state where police officers emptied about 50 rounds of ammunition into a car holding 3 unarmed men who were innocent. (something for people like henson daniel above to think about). Statistics will show that there are more African-American men on death row than any other ethnic group. About 7 years ago an African-American 12 year old boy was sentenced to death because he killed the little girl he was babysitting. In viewing the court tapes when he demonstrated what he did, it looked no different from what I and many others did when we were young and pretended to be wrestling. He was playing with his cousin and it was an accident but he was sentenced to death. Do not use a county that has bias in its legal system as an example. There are numerous examples where white males and black males committing similar crimes with the black males getting the death penalty while their white counterparts getting life sentences.
“Reason” stating that he wants the Law enforced also shows a lack of understanding of the intricacies of the legal system in Trinidad. Based upon previous rulings, 5 years on death row in Trinidad is considered cruel and unusual punishment (never mind the victim and his/her family underwent cruel and unusual punishment for the rest of their lives). So when a sentenced murder continues to appeal and exhaust and frustrate the system, the 5 years passes and then he cannot be hung due to the slow legal system. That’s the law – the sentenced right to appeal. So “reason” you think the laws are ridiculous but you want them enforced? Make up your mind and don’t call me a hypocrite and say I choose the laws I like…you are the one who is doing that.
T&T IS NOT A COMPASSIONATE SOCIETY …………..as reflected by the amount of vagrants and stray dogs on our streets and a host of other ailments.
Many an indigenous tribe ate other humans before the introduction of any white man’s law and sacrificed virgin’s on the altar.
Last I checked since independence ,only Africans and one Indian has been maximum leader not any white man. All that white mans law jabber is just an excuse for the incompetent way this nation is run. Thats what the fisher men in Tobago told Dr Kenny when he tried to stop them poaching Boobys from Little Tobago. “Don’t bring no white mans law here” as they pilfered the poor little sea birds. Real compassionate.
Real compassionate that an iguana or a manicou can’t cross the path of a trini without getting pelted with stones to end up in a cook.
Look at the homeless center in P.O.S ,lol nice compassion. STFU………………. also in recent times the LAW has not been applied in a regular fashion so none of you here can say with certainty that it is of no effect.
There needs to be a WAR on crime and with thinking such as, “And you are right, I have never served in law enforcement or the military – why would I? Military men are trained to follow orders without question and not think on their own nor be open to reason”, its no wonder we are losing. Military men are also trained to GIVE orders and carry out missions effectively Military men and police officer are trained to possibly make the ultimate sacrifice for one’s nation and possibly also take a life. Theres no thinking of public service or patriotism in any of your statements Mr Ali. just a selfish greed to impose your religious doctrine on our nation.
We need action heroes not snake oil salesmen. “The state of NY re-instated the death penalty as a form of punishment, to deter crime.” That says it all.Again I repeat it took the fascist acts of Rudy G and the Rockefeller Laws to clean up NY. Pull out all the stops.
With the porous prison system we do not have the luxury of a ban on the death penalty what we need is its rigorous enforcement. We need leaders with the will to enforce ALL our laws or change them.
Human are mammals just like sheep and dogs. And the same rules apply
“reason” you have silenced me with your high level of thinking and your astounding logic. I mean, it takes a real Oxford Graduate to come up with an argument like “STFU.” I am truly humbled. Thank you for also pointing out my “selfish greed to impose,” my, ” religious doctrine on our nation.” Could you help me out with your obviously superior intellect and quote one of my previous comments where I alluded to god or religion? I can’t find any such statement anywhere as I’m not as literate as you are.
Now I see that constantly repeating statements like, “The state of NY re-instated the death penalty as a form of punishment, to deter crime,” really does make you argument true.
Quote:
“Human are mammals just like sheep and dogs. And the same rules apply”
Could you direct me to an article of published work that identifies any instances of sociopath sheep? If you do me this one favour I can go to my grave a happy man. Once again I take my hat off and bow before you superior intellect.
maybe they should have world cup soccer every year, and trinidad must be automatically be in the finals is the only time crime went on vacation criminals was too busy watching soccer and backing t and t while sipping drinks. a lie.
I didn’t repeat the sentence i was quoting Alfred. That was his answer to the question. So um thats what he said not me , scroll up.
Guess you are one of those quasi educational elites, or you seem to think you are. Kind of like the neo-cons who got GWB to hit Iraq.Hey just by-pass a few laws.
I hold no admiration of an Oxford graduate.I’m more impressed by the honest police officers who put their lives on the line to protect and serve.Honest people who get their hands dirty. So you can correct my spelling and wax eloquently with your lofty ideals of an English gentleman. My comment regarding scripture was meant to be directed to Alfred.I bet you also oppose the death penalty due to some religious doctrine.
And you quote the privy council ruling. You agree with your ex-colonial masters who left us with their silly laws.
The USA keeps em on Death Row for ages, but if thats a issue, fast track the case.
I don’t get your point. You call legal loopholes, the intricacies of the legal system in Trinidad. Mediocrity passes for excellence?
Laws are meant to be obeyed and enforced or it just doesn’t work.
We need a war on crime , every weapon in our arsenal.
I am on the side of the victims and you guys just use excuses, or your opinions why the LAW should not be upheld.
I am for LAW & ORDER.
I want that kidnap victim who is pleading for his life, to at least be able to say “But if you kill me and they catch you. You will hang?Please just let me go.”. Just might save a live .And if they do kill him and they get caught THEY DESERVE TO GET THEIR NECKS STRETCHED”. How do you argue from the stand point of not enforcing the law? 0 I forgot, it might infringe on the bandits human rights.
I guess that’s that trini culture people talk about. Squat, vend, pull bull, anywhere you feel like.
Rum and roti, every other day is a holiday. Dump garbage, quarry, do as you feel because it’s illegal but hey, laws are meant to be bent.
Open your eyes and see how bad things are. Trinidad is just one vine removed from the jungle.
0 sheep are mostly gay , dogs on the other hand have a capacity for violence and no empathy, you know, a sociopath. Don’t you know anything?
I would add one sentence to the talk of mamalian sociopaths: Get a copy of Desmond Morris’ The Human Zoo and read his introductory essay which might well be available online.
Thanks Linda for the reference. I got a copy this morning. Morris (an Oxford Graduate no less) uses Baboon society as a parallel for Human society. I haven’t read the entire book yet but I don’t see him talking about intricate social structures of sociopath dogs and gay sheep. He does give a fresh and different view on human society but from what I have seen of reviews of his work, some of his theories cannot be tested and are unscientific but they do merit serious consideration. In my own research I learnt that chimpanzees have a similar society to ours (and why not, they are genetically 98% similar to us). Chimpanzees are the only known animals (other than humans) who premeditate murder. No other mammal or animal premeditates – so to compare humans to dog or sheep is not an accurate comparison in this scenario.
Again thanks Linda. We often do no agree on many topics but at least you have provided some research and an intelligent point of view with sound backings. That’s probably why I enjoy intellectual sparring with you (I know you may not feel the same).
“reason,” has once again silenced me, this time with his confounding logic. “Reason” cannot differentiate between me and Alfred as is evidence by his 180 turns and misdirection in his arguments. I’m just glad “reason” is not the arresting police officer or judge committing me to stand trial for which the penalty is death. Because I quoted a privy counsel ruling does not mean I “agree with your ex-colonial masters who left us with their silly laws.” Oh and Mr. “Reason” I never corrected your spelling – that is the least of your intellectual problems. Any intelligent person reading your comments will see how you contradict yourself, usually only one paragraph later. Speak to an intelligent proponent for the death penalty so you can actually have something the makes sense to contribute to the conversation.
I must say the conversation has been an eye-opener into one strata of Trinidadian society.
Anyway, for me to close off I will return to the original article. The UNC is calling for the resumption of executions because they know a large section of Trinidad want the death penalty to be carried out (and I’ve heard some very good arguments for it but not in this forum) and this will get votes. It’s easy for them to call for hanging when not in office. When they were in office and they hung Dole Chadee and gang, they bypassed some legal protocols and the never did it again because of the flak they took from both the national and international legal communities – not for the executions but for bypassing protocols. Was it Plato who said the democracy is run by the mob? The UNC is calling for what the mob wants in the hope that the mob will put them in power.
Mr. Ali, you are truly wasting your precious texts on ignorance. Notice, I have stopped responding to utter nonsense. One minute the argument is you are too compassionate or soft, the other is Trinidad is not a compassionate place. From reading your responses, I can tell you are not advocating anything on behalf of criminals. I know I am not. People should pay for their crimes. This debate was whether HANGING is an effective tool, not about victims or criminals. We all agree that the ineffective laws and enforcement of the simplest things have created mass havoc on this beautiful island. LOL it’s a good thing we are just blogging or “reasons” might have already physically assaulted you in person. I am tempted to respond to one of his last posting, but all I would be doing is highlighting inconsistencies and contradictions. So, it is useless.
However, I would like to point out a correction on a previous point you made and to agree on another.
In your previous post on Jan 13th, you made reference to a young African American boy, age 13, who was sentenced to death for killing a young playmate. Well, that young child’s name is Lionel Tate who is of Jamaican ancestry. He was imitating WWF wrestling moves and accidentally killed a much smaller (age and size) girl age 6. His family was offered a plea bargain and they refused opting instead to have a jury trial. He was eventually found guilty and sentenced to LIFE imprisonment not DEATH. The general public, including myself believed he should be punished for his act, whether accident or not. We must be held accountable for our actions. However, in this case the punishment was severely harsh and unwarranted. After a general public outcry, including the victim’s parents, and the state prosecutors, the powers at be after 2 yrs reduced his sentence and granted him parole. Unfortunately, the damage to this child was done. He spent 2 years in prison mixed in with habitual offenders. Need I say more? When he was released, he was no longer an innocent child who made a mistake, but a child influenced by the criminal system. Lionel Tate is now back in prison serving LIFE for parole violations. He robbed a pizza delivery guy of a full size pizza with a firearm. SUCH A WASTE.
I agree on your point concerning the UNC using the Hang man as an election tool. Pure politics. While in office they never carried out any hanging until Dole Chadee and gang. And that was a hanging of convenience and comfort. Convenience and comfort just like Saddam was hung for convenience and comfort. I am not advocating that Dole or Saddam were good people or innocent. They were rotten. But justice must not be compromised, diluted or tainted. If we are going to do something right, do it right and honest. Saddam was hung in such haste not for what he did, but for what he knew about the US Government and the Bushes. Same way former AG Ramesh hung Dole and company because they had a lot of information on Ramesh and company’s dirty deeds. (Murder for hire, witness killings …etc) Chadee had ties to a lot of our Government ministers, current and past, including our famous COP Burrows. Those legal protocols were not bypassed by accident, there were bypassed to provide comfort and convenience.
The UNC is calling for what the mob wants? Mr Jeremie not to long ago tried to hang that cascade murderer before his appeals were complete. The UNC is calling for what the NATION wants. You Sir are part of the lawless mob.
Ok Mr Smarty pants, tell me why the death penalty should not be carried out if its the LAW of the land, and there is no doubt of guilt in a heinous murder?
Conservative morals but liberal enforcement of laws. Sir you truly are the 3rd World Man.I suggest you run for the Banana Parliament.
We really need a wake up call in this WAR on crime,which still has no been declared.
Wow The Human Zoo, read that along with the Naked Ape when I was knee high to a grasshopper.Thanks for the memory. Nice classic read of a almost 40 yr old book. Educate yourself, what you have to read, I already experienced in life.Lions and lionesses also premeditate murder, they call them cub killers.As do a host of other animals, humans included.
Gay sheep http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3008
Sociopath dogs http://www.gundogmag.com/training/aggression_0502/
Hey Alfred. Thanks for clearing up that case with Lionel Tate. I could not remember the boy’s name. And also thanks for correcting my mistake.
I read the link posted by “reason.” I am not arguing with “reason” in this instance but just pointing out to anyone else reading that the statement made earlier that “sheep are mostly gay” dated Jan 14th 9:17AM is quite different from what in mentioned in the link provided. The study says “as many as 1 in 10.” In addition, both sheep and dogs are domesticated animals so their behavior may at times not be reprehensive of their naturally occurring tendencies. Lions kill cubs because there are hard-wired to remove the competition for recourses among their offspring and those of other parents’. Chimpanzees, like humans, have been studied in the wild congregating and apparently planning attacks hours or days before ganging up on a particular member of the community and killing him or her for no reason that scientists can observe.
Alfred I usually live by a saying which is in line with the first line of your last post. “I don’t argue with fools because I have to stoop to their level and then I will loose because of my lack of experience” but once in a while it is nice to argue with someone who has no sense of reason. Ironic name.
The reason Lionel Tate was released, was due to the case in Central Fl where the 2 white kids bashed their dads head with a baseball bat and got convicted, sentenced to prison, but were instead sent to JV, because the state said they would be raped in the Pen.
Its funny how you make excuses for Tate’s criminal behavior on his release. He got in trouble on more than one occasion. This soft on crime attitude is what has T&T in the shape its in. The damage he did to that little girl went way beyond play wrestling.She had a ruptured spleen, lacerations, and damage to her rib cage, a fractured skull, brain contusions, a partially detached liver and bruises all over her body.Yea he was a real boy scout.He’s a monster.
I said lions and LIONESSES, lions kill cubs that they did not father, and lioness cub killers are an abnormality, a sociopath lioness that kills the cubs of other females also her own.
Guess you never heard of rouge elephants.
Anyway I’ve had enough of your lack of knowledge of the natural kingdom.
My point is simple. Laws are made to be enforced and obeyed.Your “precious texts” try to justify selective enforcement of laws. Just like all the corrupt power-brokers in this land.Get serious man.
This country is sinking into a deep morass.
Ok, I’ve been reading this blog for the past few days for pure amusement. I am in support of capital punishment to an extent – let me just get that out of the way before I am attacked. I haven’t said anything yet but the person calling himself/herself reason is truly an uninformed or misinformed person. Sir/Madam, I am a Zoologist by profession who worked at the San Diego Zoo and so far, 90% of what you have said about animal behavior is wrong.
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/Behavior/Spring2004/shelburne/infanticide.html
http://www.lionresearch.org/behavior_guide/infant.html
Maybe new research has come out since the publishing of these websites or when I was in school but as far as I know Lionesses don’t kill offspring from their own pride.
Lions are the only social cats so you don’t equate their behaviour 100% with other cats. Then why would someone want to equate their behavour with that of a different species like humans?
I’m not going to get into the entire discussion of the Tate case since a previous article in this blog well explains the self fulfilling prophecy. In Tate’s case you are off the mark with your facts as you are with everything else so far. As an advocate for the death penalty, you are doing a poor job with your weak and inaccurate agreements.
You apparently misunderstood Riaz in his use of the word “mob” and somehow from your comments about Linda’s recommended reading, I don’t believe you read The Human Zoo – I may be wrong and you are some sort of prodigy who read that book as a small child. As Alfred rightly pointed out, the discussion was about if the death penalty was or wasn’t an effective tool in reducing murders. You have argued a totally different point.
Are you telling me the whole GAY genes argument is coming from SHEEP? LOL
“Dr. Malgosia Cegielski, a Portland-based clinical psychologist, calls Roselli’s gay-sheep experiment “frivolous” and “frightening.” She says: “I don’t see any clinical utility or human benefit with what he’s doing. … The gene expression and biological differences at a cellular level between [nonhuman] animals and humans is so huge. To draw conclusions between animal behavior [and] humans is a joke.”
Dr. Roselli, Oregon Health & Science University (OHSU) and Oregon State University (OSU) are receiving so much flack for this study. Academia is staying clear. They are the only ones I know that is running on the GAY sheep issue and trying to convert so called GAY sheep to straight ones, in hopes of using that on humans. (Replacing genes ..etc) There are unnecessarily slaughtering animals.
The following are some PRO vs. CON on the GAY gene issue. You can read and decide on your own. On observation, I noticed, on reading the PRO gay gene side, watch at the key words used, “suggest” “our best guess” “there is no one gay gene” whilst on the CON side of the issue, the responses are more affirmative. “I did not find or prove” “unable to confirm” “there is no support” “attempts to demonstrate have failed” Have a good read.
http://www.gayprocon.org/bin/procon/procon.cgi?database=5-B-Subs-1.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=11&rnd=751.6274445590964
Gosh we are so off point on the original topic of whether hanging is a deterrent for crime.
First off my facts on the Tate case are correct.
Let me give you the time line. I had first hand knowledge of the JV cases in So-Fla during this period.
After the spate of school shootings in the late 90’s there where a series of murders committed by juveniles in PBC. The first murder occurred at a middle school in West Palm, a black male juvenile killed a hispanic kid for his watch. I believe his name was O’neal or something like that. Then the Tate case happened, another black male juvenile, committed a murder following that Nathanial Brazil, a black male juvenile shot his teacher, this teacher was beloved in Lake Worth.
Chain Gang Charlie and that bunch of yahoo’s in Tallahassee were yelling about super predators, harping on the Illinois case where an even younger black male juvenile, shot someone with a crooked rifle. Tate was offered a plea, which his mother refused.
Then lo and behold the King brothers, two white male juveniles killed their father, and set his body alight.
Now all the previous cases were from PBC and Broward but the King’s were from Central or North Fl. They were convicted and sentenced to adult prison. But if you dont know, the power in Fl lies in North Fl, commonly referred to as South Ga due to the oppressive amount of conservative rednecks, and they were not having that.
I watched the case on tv ,and the younger kid was very articulate and he was molested by an adult, who was also charge but was aquitted.
The brothers were sentenced to adult prison but they were saved from that fate, because the courts decided the would be raped in prison and were sentenced instead to JV.
The unfairness of this whole ordeal was too much even for the most conservative citizen. The state then found a way to get Tate out of jail. It was the state that got him out of jail, not his defense.
Now I did no research on this, this is strictly from memory so there was be slight inaccuracies, but on the whole this is what happened.
I wasn’t asking you about the Tate case I was telling you.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0609/feature4/assignment1.html
“One female in particular, we discovered, was a cub-killer. It was shocking because Dereck and I had never come across this sort of behavior before. We can never know why this lioness kills cubs, but we can only suggest that while we humans tend to feel we have exclusivity on intelligence, language, emotions, and a range of other traits, we actually do not.”
Well know you know about lionesses that kill cubs. Now tell me where this “90% of what you have said about animal behavior is wrong.”
I’ve been to the San Diego Zoo in 1990, its nice.
To be honest I really don’t care what you believe I’ve read, but I’ve read and experienced a lot in my life and if I don’t know something I keep my mouth shut.
Humans and animals are both mammals my friends.Theres a lot more homo critters than just sheep and humans.
So keep hacking away at “reasons” for not enforcing the laws, and making excuses for the behavior of murderers.
You like it so.
To the person, reason, that article you quoted goes on to say that one reason for the killing may be the lioness may have lost her cubs and when she approaches new cubs, thinking they are her own and they don’t respond to her they way her cubs did, she kills them. The error in your argument is that 1. you said some lionesses (plural) kill their young. In Zoology, we don’t generalize about a species if we only observe the behavior only once. This is only one case (In Botswana, there are 3 prides of swimming lions – does that mean that all lions swim? In Kenya there is one instance of Lions climbing trees – do all lions climb trees?) and 2. There is no indication of premeditation here. It’s seems to be reactionary. People try to equate animals with humans and in some areas you can but in other areas you cannot. Female lions will suckle the young of others in the pride. Humans rarely ever do that. Lions, Sheep and Dogs are poor examples to use when comparing to humans.
Hope that answers you question about what 90% you’ve been wrong so far about. The Internet is a good tool for information but people who read a few articles on the Internet (some with little or no academic backing) and visited the San Diego Zoo are no experts as is your case. I now go back to my silent enjoyment of your ramblings. No more arguments from me as you seem to know it all. You unlike others in this forum cannot accept that you are wrong on occasion.
As I said before I agree with the death penalty but I do not agree with the reasons “Reason” gives. The legal system in Trinidad needs to be revamped so that cases can be tried and appealed within the 5 year period.
“You unlike others in this forum cannot accept that you are wrong on occasion.” Now who does that really pertain to?
It seems as if every statement I make you Sir, you jump on the internet and try to verify it, as I noticed your disclaimer on the cub killing statement.
1. “you said some lionesses (plural) kill their young”. Sir it is my belief that no case is unique, as I have learned from life experiences. I could probably find another instance, but its not worth the effort. I concede I was wrong. I said lionesses but only gave proof of 1 lioness.
2. “There is no indication of premeditation here.Incorrect, the lion in question would pretend to babysit the cubs, then when given the chance she would slaughter them”.
So you’re at about 50% so far.
3. “Female lions will suckle the young of others in the pride. Humans rarely ever do that.” Incorrect, in the 3rd world wet nursing is
commonplace, and the upper crusty use it as a luxury in 1st world nations.
So lets say um…60% give or take.Not in your favor.
The scientist in the article I posted earlier stated, “but we can only suggest that while we humans tend to feel we have exclusivity on intelligence, language, emotions, and a range of other traits, we actually do not.”
Albert you state, “Lions, Sheep and Dogs are poor examples to use when comparing to humans.”
Well to be frank I give more credit to National Geographic. than you dear Sir. You know nothing of my educational background but you try to be-little me. This educational elitist attitude people take in T&T is direct contributor to the growing crime rate.
Every one with a piece of paper wants to be called Dr. No credit is given to a good tradesman. A not so bright fellow cannot aspire to be a master plumber, master electrician or master carpenter, as he is looked down upon by the “Intelligentista”.The perpetuation of this type of thinking is a remnant of our colonial rule and should go the way of the dinosaur. “Another bit of red left my atlas today”.
I don’t know where you went to school, or in what era but I am beginning to believe that the extent of your knowledge in Zoology is contained to filling fertilizer bags in the pachyderm enclosure.
Hanging is a deterrent to crime as the hung have no chance of ever killing again. Hang Em High!!!!!