By Dr. Kwame Nantambu
September 20, 2015
The recent public simplistic, albeit ridiculous racial remarks as per social media by Trinbagonians, tended to false impression that that’s the human interactive reality in this country post 53 years of putative political independence, period.
At the outset, it must be stated quite emphatically and equivocally that “this our native Land” is NOT racially monologue; our “native Land” is a polyglot, multiracial, multi-religious, multi-ethnic society, period. Hey, my fellow Trinbagonians there were human beings as in peoples who inhabited this land in B.B.E. era long, long, long, those whom are now called Europeans came, albeit stumbled, after being totally lost, ‘discovered’ whatever….
However, let’s be historically correct: on the one hand, Afrikans were brought involuntarily, violently and inhumanely by disparate Europeans from ALL parts of Mother Afrika, North-East-South but in particular, West Afrika as in El Mina Castle in West Afrika, Ghana. According to deceased, totally respected Afri-centric, Afrikan-American scholar/historian, Dr. John Henrik Clark in his book “Christopher Columbus & the Afrikan Holocaust” (1992):
“(Europeans) forced their way into (Ghana) and built the first permanent slave trading settlement in West Africa. The year was 1482.” Dr. Clarke goes on to pontificate: “This was the beginning of European colonization, the beginning of the hunting–ground for procuring slave labor, the disruption of our religion, our social systems, the loss of respect for our forefathers, all these things being taken away without anything of value being put in their place.” (p.47.)
Dr. Clarke also cautions that “when the Europeans first came down the West Coast of Africa, they were treated as guests by the unsuspecting Africans whom they would later enslave. When the Africans began to suspect that the intentions of the Europeans were not good, in most cases, it was too late and they did not have the modern weapons of that day to defend themselves.”(p.45). Most importantly, Dr. Clarke pontificates that “Skin colour was not a factor as to whether a person did or did not become a slave and, in most cases, the slave had some rights that the master had to respect.”(p.53).
On the other hand, Indians came mostly humanely, voluntarily and as “indentured servants” a la Euro-British people as in kit and kin from India. Dr. Eric Williams in his magnum opus “Capitalism and Slavery” (1944), confirms/validates that “The immediate successor of the Amerindians was not the African but the ‘poor whites.’ They were regarded as ‘indentured servants’ because before leaving India, they had to sign a contract binding them to serve for a stipulated period for their passage. Others were criminals/convicts who were sent by the (Euro)-British government to serve for a specific time on plantations in the Caribbean.” (p.9.)
This is a good account of where our ancestors came from. However, most Indo-Trinis currently living here were born here, as were their parents and grandparents. Yes, they’re born here, and then grow up to realize that they are viewed as unwelcome immigrants from a backward, unclean and racist ethnic group, who are unfit company for fully human races such as Whites, Africans and Chinese.
Indians were and are considered better than africans(genetically) by the whites. Although their hindu beliefs were scorned from a christian viewpoint (just as hindus scorned non hindu beliefs) the whites considered them human…a distant cousin of europeans as opposed to africans who they are on record as saying were 1/5th of a human with no human dignity afforded to them for hundreds of years. Also even today whites are more likely to mix with indians than africans especially women…and indians know this. so there is this united phenotypical racist stance between all the straight haired groups against dark skinned africans.
Syrians, chinese, whites all intermarry with indians rather freely albeit indians accept they are getting a ‘hand up’ and are inferior…but africans are generally avoided like the plague for marriage, kinship and elite groups….e.g. look at the power structure of the most popular clubs in T&T, africans as bouncers…mixed as dj’s and the owners and committee members and those who are given immense priviledges are indians, whites, chinese, some light skinned almost white blacks and any mixture of the aforementioned… these are the same people who populate the COP political party and claim to want positive change…give me a break!
It must be noted that these light skinned blacks and almost whites that support the uncop are also racist eh…africans need to acknowledge african self hate and racism especially in the politics…teaming up with racist indians and whites to abuse their own under the misguided “illusion of inclusion” just like those african bouncers who joyfully work for and enforce racism against their own on behalf of indians,c hinese and white owners at those clubs in T&T
The analysis of indentureship and the nature of why indians cjose to leave the motherland to come to the caribbean and wherever the british caried themk has always been incomplete and somewhat misleading. Firstly indians that came as indentured labourers were untouchables!(Dalits) they were neither uppercaste (brahmin, ksatriayas nor vaishas) nor were they lowcaste(shudras) they were in fact Untouchables a (dalits) and Untouchables HAVE NO CASTE i.e. both upper and lower castes ‘hindus’ are purported to have come from the hidu gods’ body and therefore are WITHIN the caste/Varna system albeit from significantly different parts of his (brahma’s) body…i.e. head as opposed to foot etc. How is this (hindu caste ideology) relevant to the ‘push’ & ‘pull’ factors in indian indentureship???
firstly lets deal with the ‘push’ factor(s) ; untouchables, not being from god’s body are not considered human beings by ‘caste’ hindus (upper and lower caste) and are not entitled to basic human rights! To this day the dalits (untouchables) are forced to (1) clean human waste from caste hindus with their BARE HANDS(children aren’t spared this indignity)
(2) transport the aforementioned human waste in BASKETS (not buckets) ON THEIR HEADS!and yes it slimes down their faces
(3) untouchable women are raped and tortured on the whim of caste hindus at their leisure (usually in groups of 5-20 or more) you see beca6ee they aren’t human there is no justice and also the minds, bodies and souls of untouchables are considered the property of the caste hindus so if they feel to rape or snuff you out it is considered their uppercaste right and completely normal.
(4) google the “devidasi system” part of hindu culture is where the mandir’s (temples) are “staffed” with untouchable females i.e children and young women…they are ‘dedicated’ to the temple (chosen by the brahmins against the will of parents),their jobs are to dance and provide sexual companionship to the brahmins(‘priests’)and of course, condoms are never used, so the children of these unions are born as untouchables with no father and will tend to be lighter skinned than the rest and similarly to slavery they would be seen as higher than the usual untouchable (which creates disunity among them) this explains why there are many untouchables who are light skinned
(5) most importantly overall for those untouchables who chose to take the british offer to leave india is the fact that apart from all the abuse and indignity, in the hindu caste/varna system, there is no movement up….if you clean and tote faeces and excrement for a living that is your family lineages job FOREVER!had they not left then all the buagwansinghs, capildeos and ‘maharaj’would’ve been doing the same job to this day and that is what you call despair and hopelessness! This is why they left…they knew that the whites and their christianity were much more humane and provided hope for upward mobility and dignity!
so don’t be fooled from Tman and the pseudo hindu intellectuals that posture today to change history and claim they were forced and india was perfect..it was hindu caste oppression they were fleeing..same reason why they converted to christianity and islam. Also the practice if handling and ingesting faeces along with all of the forced unhygeinic practices that became part of untouchable daily life and culture explains why they had to be quarantined when they came to T&T..it explains the lice and worm infestations that infamously plagued indian indentureship. But now they want to rewrite history to make it seem that these issues were created by the british…nope..their very own culture and customs that they brought here.however, unfortunately instead of being activists and speaking out against these practices they recreate themselves with made up uppercaste nakes and try to recreate their former position in the caste/vatrna system on us africans! And obnoxiously are angered by african refusal and rejection of inferior status.
finally check out a trinidadian indian named darrel dookoo admitting on vieeo that his grandmother came from india as an indentured and she told him that she lied to “the white man” (british) ship logs and told him her last name was Dookoo but was in fact Mycoo because she admitted that she came from a family lineage of LATRINE BUILDERS and she didn’t want to condemn her descendents to that type of life(hindu ideology)so she lied and escaped to trinidad. Interestingly though darrel said she was lowcaste which proves many indians don’t understand the intricacies of the caste/varna system because they aren’t truly descended from uppercastes. Darrwl’s mpgrandmother was an untouchable and a brave one. Check out his vlog below
https://youtu.be/3bZZtyIUC5U
“Firstly indians that came as indentured labourers were untouchables!(Dalits) they were neither uppercaste (brahmin, ksatriayas nor vaishas) nor were they lowcaste(shudras) they were in fact Untouchables a (dalits) and Untouchables HAVE NO CASTE’ (alyssa)
Although I do not personally recognize or legitimize the concept of “caste”, the records clearly show that Indians of every caste came to Caribbean. Alyssa seems to take comfort in the idea that we were all from a line of “latrine builders”. Even if we were, I ask , what’s wrong with that?
What is most significant is what you make of yourself, not “what” you come from. If other groups in our society had imitated us, they would probably be much more successful today.
“so don’t be fooled from Tman and the pseudo hindu intellectuals that posture today to change history and claim they were forced and india was perfect..” (alyssa)
What’s this?
I have never made this claim. This alyssa person accuses us of creating our own version of events. It is sadly ironic that she is rewriting history to suit her thesis that Indians are racist scum who hate Africans as she gloats that our ancestors “transported the human waste in BASKETS (not buckets) ON THEIR HEADS!and yes it slimes down their faces”. Well, if that is correct, we have come a long way and should all be proud.
Again with the spinning and spinning …when did i use the word scum? Did i say indians are scum? Please cite where i said this…and a for my description of the humiliating dehumanising tasks that upper caste hindus force untouchables and low castes to perform, please refer to the documentary “India Untouched-a people apart” Or “India Exposed” or any credible documentary on untouchables in India and you would either see it or referred to. I had a specific purpose in describing these practices to expose the depth of dishonesty considering indian arrival in trinidad and the contrast in how they were treated in india as opposed to T&T…
the version that i cite is historically accurate and just plain true…it is not about gloating but pointing out the true reasons indians had problems with lice, worms etc…i.e. they weren’t quarantined out of wickedness, neither were these conditions developed in T&T because the barrack yards where they were housed unclean at least to the extent. The point is that through the hindu practice of untouchability, where the literal handling of feces with bare hands and also being forced to eat the fecesof upper castes and drink their urine, which is/was forced on people who are very dark skinned and deemed inferior, diseases, lice/worm infestations will be common.
Interestingly at least i explain this in its entirety from a historical basis. However one of the trinidad indian groups i believe the indian arrival day committee or so have website about indian ‘history’ and indentureship and amazingly they allude to the same thing but cruelly (in my opinion) simply say that ‘the (dalits who came to t&t) had bad hygiene’ however this is in their version of history that states that a ‘small percentage’ of indians who came to cut cane were dalits (untouchables) when in fact the vast majority of them were (dalits).
Also by not stating that the dalits are forced into a lifestyle of poor hygiene they take the upper caste posture that it isn’t forced but “are just naturally so(unhygienic by choice) BIG LIE! It is forced on them to demean and dehumanize them like the attempt to do to africans (dark skinned) in T&T
guys…learn from “BM” ‘s deceitful tactic of trying to twist every post to mean something contrary to the intended message in order to get me to backstep LOL… we get alot of information by observing him slither two and fro like the serpent of satan he is…lol…he keeps fulfilling the stereotypes he doesn’t like…i told you he’s compelled to do these things…his parents taught him even before primary school “yuh see dem rawan, dey does smell bad…diss is how yuh must deceive dem…”
The government has to pay African decendants reparation to compensate for the injustice of slavery. Without reparation , there is no justice and by extension, there will be no peace.
The government has taken the responsibility from the British when we accepted our independence.
No MR. Pollard
It is the British that owe African citizens in the new world reparations. They should be paying Caribbean Governments reparations. These governments would in turn pay their citizens.
It is the British and some other Europeans that profited from Slavery. The European empires were built on the backs of free labour i.e. African slavery. They must be made to pay. That is where the justice lies. Regional governments using the taxes of the very people that should be remunerated, to pay them reparations for slavery is not justice.
Both the Europeans and everyone who came after emancipation benefited from the free labor you speak of. I mean, if a business is unfairly taken from an individual or family by another family, and over time the descendants, the cousins, the married relatives all come to benefit from the initial economic foundation of that business, why should all of them not be liable.
The People who arrived in T&T after emancipation stepped out unto the carcasses of Africans who had labored, suffered and died in the construction of the infrastructure that was their new home. The Sugar Plantations had already been hewn, cultivated. It is not as if they landed in virgin rain forest. They landed in a place where there had already been two centuries of forced investment by Africans. Whether this makes some feel uncomfortable or not does not alter the authenticity of that reality.
@ Ms. Marshall,
You certainly made an interesting post. I am not sure that Caribbean governments should bear the economic burden of reparations, since the officials of many of these governments were descended from slave labourers. An argument can be made that they have been complicit to a certain degree of perpetuating the master-slave paradigm, but I really want to train my eyes on the true perpetrators of one of the worst humanitarian crimes in human history, i.e. the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade.
Observe British Prime Minister David Cameron’s abhorrent and despicable refusal to admit Britain’s guilt in the atrocious African Holocaust. Despite volumes upon volumes of sound historical scholarship proving Britain’s integral role in the tyrannical oppression of African slaves, he simply asks us the slave descendants to “move on”?! Surely he speaks in jest!
http://time.com/4057001/david-cameron-jamaica-reparations/
To his credit, former Jamaican Prime Minister PJ Patterson roundly condemned Prime Minister Cameron’s condescending paternalism and doublespeak and courageously spoke his mind, unlike the other spineless CARICOM leaders.
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/news/20151008/full-text-pj-slams-david-cameron-are-we-not-worthy-he-asks
This is why I will always admire the Afro-Jamaican cultural trait to boldly act against injustice and let the chips fall where they may. It is an act that the other African slave descendants should indeed follow.
With that said, if his present government or governments before his do not feel remorse or responsibility for slavery, then they should not be compelled to apologise for a slavery. It will be hollow and insincere in any case.
However, neither I nor my ancestors, are obliged to forgive them or their ancestors for their atrocities. Logically speaking, the only way one can gain forgiveness for any act is if they admit wrongdoing. If murders someone and goes before a judge and appeals for clemency, can that judge grant such if the murderer is unaware of his wrongdoing? In fact, asking for clemency becomes a logical paradox since clemency is usually made on the basis of an admission (tacit or outspoken) admission of guilt for a transgression.
Thus, while I will not be bitter and will deal with people of Caucasian ancestry according to their individual merits, I will continue to hold many of them responsible for a system that has been built on the backs of slave labour.
This article by Dr. Nantambu certainly puts the racist outpourings in the aftermath of a still-disputed election (see UNC petition before the courts) into a sharper focus.
The older I have gotten the more that I am coming to realize that the notions of race as it relates to skin colour is a social construct, a form of toxic mind programming and mind control designed to distract humanity from more pertinent issues such as moral failures regarding the fair and equitable management and distribution of this planet’s resources. The notion of race has also blinded mankind the stark reality of social unrest and upheaval and corporate corruption in many countries.
In our local context, the English colonials’ diabolically clever strategy of “divide and rule” is still paying dividends today with the island’s most dominant ethnic groups vying for political, economic and social supremacy in a very small land space. With deeply ingrained distrust on both sides of the ethnic divide, Afro-Trinbagonians and Indo-Trinbagonians are locked in a sort of rhetorical stalemate with representatives from both sides imputing hostile motives and behaviours based on accepted historical narratives about the nature and attitudes of each race or tribe toward the other.
In the midst of infighting, the decay of our society continues apace. We live in a land where a twelve year old boy cannot walk home at 9:00 in the morning without the prospect of killed in a hail of bullets. Trinidad and Tobago is a place where the economic stability of our country is almost entirely dependent on the capricious nature of energy markets. We also live in a place where almost all of the major economic activity and government services are concentrated in the capital city, resulting in the inevitable traffic gridlock and attendant psychological stress.
These are simply some of the issues with which Trinidad and Tobago has to grapple. Many of these problems function of human failings such as selfishness, avarice, and corruption among others. Whether the PNM, the UNC in its many guises and incarnations or the NAR has been in power, these shortcomings have been very much in evidence.
Of course, I will be foolish discount the impact of racial beliefs on our current condition. However, I believe that it is a manufactured product that continues to divide our society and ensure our downfall. In the game of high stakes power, race and ethnicity only matter insofar as it perpetuates a particular mindset or desire for control. In our current era and in past eras, it is not uncommon for say an individual from a particular race to be accepted into another because he shares the same attitudes, belief and mindsets of someone from the entrenched power group. Thus, a capitalist is a capitalist is a capitalist, regardless of skin colour. I am not necessarily against capitalism, I am simply making a point.
Hence, we have to get to the point in Trinidad and Tobago where we have to move on from attritional war of words between the major ethnic groups and awaken to the sobering reality before us, i.e. we are a tiny twin-island state struggling to maintain relevance in an unforgiving global environment. The only concession I will make is that the African descendant in this island must be allowed to continue searching for his past in order to make sense of his present. There can be no fear or misconceptions from within his group or from other groups as he searches for himself. Indeed, I have found myself and will continue to testify there is nothing quite like knowing who you are.
However, knowing oneself does not give him/her license to engage in some sort of ethnic triumphalism or treachery against the other. Indeed, we are all children of the Eternal Creator and need to be faithful stewards and rulers of his planet. He has given us dominion over it after all.
I’m sorry ‘triniamerican’ but your post is an example of the over intellectualising & over waxing on philosophy to the point of being paralysed into indecision and no coherent rebuttal of clear signs of racism and wickedness.
Firstly, the notion that the slavemasters & whites caused division between migrants from ancient hindu caste india and descendents of enslaved africans is not just untrue but a lie!.. the notion that “we” indians and africans should “unite against them whites that divided we” is actually ignorant and dishonest. The major, most influential slaveholder in T&T at the time named William Hardin Burnley (tacarigua) is on record as insisting to the other whites that labourers from india because their caste prejudices will keep them aloof and unsympathetic to the africans and therefore never unite against them.
So the slavemasters didn’t create indian racist hatred and scorn for africans they merely IMPORTED it deliberately by bringing them to the caribbean. The same reason the mongoose was brought to “deal” with the snake in T&T, is the same way indians and their racist hate & scorn for africans were brought as a “cat in bag” to release on the former enslaved africans who wanted upwards mobility.
Also, they gave indians alot of land which to this day they enjoy as it makes them wealthy. hinduism & its ideology which has seeped into the culture of all indians even non hindus is what divided africans and indians. Indians came to trinidad, guyana, fiji, mauritius with the ingrained belief that although they were untouchables in india and oppressed by real uppercaste hindus and had to flee, they noticed that africans because of our facial features and hair are supposed to be even lower than them and that they are superior to us…that determined and continues to define our inter ethnic relationship…not the pnm..and unlike the unc, the pnm wasn’t founded in a sectarian African church….the unc, dlp etc were founded in a mandir…they are extensions of the maha sabha and badhase sagan maharaj (sat’s father in law)..so whilst in theory, i am happy to engage on the failings of the pnm in the past (everybody has failings) i am not one of those brainwashed africans to parrot the propaganda that all parties divided the people…that is a lie..
The unc/dlp/cop are in the political context solely responsible for ethnic disunity! And to be straightforward…it is the nasty racism in the indian community that divides T&T.. and it isn’t going away because it is the religious/cultural beliefs…africans have no history or religious backround as christians or muslims of hating other ethnic groups because of their features…actually it is the opposite, africans cherish other ethnic groups more than their own (self hate).
Question: which ethnic group go into stores to buy hair from the other ethnic to put on their heads?(admitting inferiority)…africans are the only ones who do this despicable practice…which ethnic group threatens to disown or snuff out the lives of their own children if they bring home or marry dark skinned kink headed members of the other ethnic group…only indians do this (in the context of indians & africans) so the evidence is there which ethnic group consistently scorns and hates the other and which group desperately tries to be accepted by the other even at the cost if personal dignity.
Very well put Alyssa. But how do you resolve this mess so that our grandchildren can have a life. The selfies in our society do not intend on giving way. They have our oil and gas money in the billions. I trained a young french creole engineer back in the 80s. Before he even graduated at a Canadian University his mother in a boastful way at a Christmas party told a colleague of mind that her son will be a President of the company in time to come. I trained this boy who did not know his work too well. Was she a mind reader! ….NO, NO, NO. These things are all pre-arranged. He (her son) is President of the company today (nearly 10 years now). It does not matter in T&T how educated or experienced you are. You are NOT recognition for your performance unless you are terribly needed by then. Bull Moose and others like him still reign in T&T. High Tertiary certification and top class work experience gets you no where even when you decide to suck up to your false papers bosses. Some persons tell me this comes from North American society (we copy them so much it aint funny) where the same applies there. In T&T string pulling is still the order of the day despite BLACK POWER – 70s. Who respects NJAC (check the polls). The top jobs are all hidden jobs and are reserved for certain persons in our society. So alyssa our problem is much more than the racist indo community, the revolution for much needed change is world wide. Hence here comes ISIS. The longer I live the more I realise that nothing in the world bad as it may happens …..because we like it so. Some are fightless but most are visionless. There are no leaders for change anymore (they fixed that problem a long time ago – money them out of the equation). When we are truly fed up or when our problems are so huge it cuts deep inside of us, perhaps then we will cry out for God to change things. The EVIL has to reach a point where all that exits is total chaos. If Pope Francis can go into the USA and make such an impression it means many are hurting like us in T&T. Evil consumes every part of us. What is inside the indian bowels for years is coming out NOW in vomit. I do hope they can live with things after the vomiting. God doh like ugly.
Alyssa
Your outpouring is so draconian and full of hatred it is just mind boggling. Misinformed, misguided and pure ignorance.
Unfathomable that 15 years into the 21st century thinking like yours is alive and well.
Alyssa parachuted onto this site venomously ascribing everything evil to Hindus and Hinduism. Let me state at the outset that I am not a Hindu, but when bigotry rears its ugly head it should be challenged. This Alyssa person has posted a multitude of blogs presenting a distorted narrative skewed to emphasize her central thesis that all Hindus are racist. She came really close to suggesting that racism is an inborn characteristic in all Indians by suggesting that it was in their DNA. She made prolific use of anecdotes, subjective data and biographical information of the worse, derogatory types to support her point of view. She entertained, informed and delighted many who willingly bought into her distorted dogma. She crudely portrayed India and by utilizing carefully selected images, examples and events painted a totally negative and despicable picture of India and Indians. She is entitled to her opinion and her freedom of expression. However, there are recognized scholars who present a totally opposite view of Hinduism. It is not my intention to endorse any literature on Hinduism or to refute completely Alyssa’s viewpoint. I am reminded of the words of a certain candidate in the Republican primaries of the US who boldly stated that no Muslim should become president of the United States.
The other view of Hinduism:
Hinduism, or Sanatana Dharma, is a rich and dynamic collection of hundreds of spiritual and philosophical traditions that are based on certain essential, core tenets. Its transcendent insights into the existential questions of humanity — the meaning of life, why we are here, fate versus free will — have led to a profound and global embrace of such Hindu concepts as religious pluralism, yoga, meditation, ayurvedic healing, reincarnation, karma, environmentalism, the celebration of the divine feminine, and vegetarianism. Yet, even as Hindu precepts are ascendant in contemporary discourse, Indian citizens, Hindus in the diaspora, and many Western seekers eager to immerse themselves in the Hindu way of life, see a glaring dichotomy in the vast gap between the religious teaching of divinity inherent in each being and the continued social reality of discrimination and inequality in parts of Indian society predicated on the “caste” of one’s birth – a striking contrast between Aham Brahmasmi (“I am that Divine”) and untouchability
1. Caste-based discrimination and a birth-based caste hierarchy are not intrinsic to the Hindu religion.
2. Caste-based discrimination does exist in many parts of India today.
3. Caste-based discrimination fundamentally contradicts the essential teaching of Hindu sacred texts that divinity is inherent in all beings.
4. Contemporary Hindu spiritual leaders are actively promoting authentic interpretations of Hindu sacred texts, affirming that the solution to caste-based discrimination lies in an adherence to core Hindu teachings.
5. Representative democracy, government policies, and urbanization/economic liberalization have wrought a sea change in caste equations in modern India, but the matter is complicated by the emergence of caste-based politics.
6. Caste-based discrimination is being exploited by multi-national evangelical and missionary organizations whose ostensibly humanitarian and development goals are too often intertwined with predatory proselytization and conversion. Also, caste-based discrimination is an issue that the sovereign state of India and its people have addressed and continue to do so, thus interference by any external agency in India’s internal affairs is unacceptable and unwarranted.
Topics on this blog change from day to day and those of us who feel that we have something to say about them do put in our “pennies” worth of information which we know can be challenged (and often are) by those holding opposite views. One of the things common on this type of intercourse is misconstrusion of what is written in order to effectively convey another meaning to what is written. TMan, I am afraid that you have fallen prey to this type of behavior. I have often stated on this blog that you portray a limited sense of comprehension to the written word and your reply to what you say is evidence of it. You gather answers, then reframe one’s statement in a way that would seem relevant to what you have to say and that is dishonest. There are things that are irrefutable and then there are things that can be challenged to some degree of success but your utterings about what Alyssa has said falls way off the mark.
You said;
1. “when bigotry rears its ugly head it should be challenged.” I am in agreement with that – only that you twisted conversation and called it bigotry. What is bigoted about the fact that the hindu religion classify people’s lives based upon prescribed notions of superiority and inferiority? If it is fact it is not bigoted. Do you attack Alyssa for stating that? Is Alyssa a bigot for stating that? One of the reasons why there is so much conflict in the world today, is because there are people who feel that their beliefs and authority take precedent over what others know and feel. Can you convince over two hundred and fifty million Dalits in India that hinduism is not the cause and source of their sufferings of inhumanity and indignity? Of course NOT.
2. “She came really close to suggesting that racism is an inborn characteristic in all Indians by suggesting that it was in their DNA” – that is your interpretation of what she is suggesting. What I take from what she is saying is this. Each and everyone of us gather and form beliefs, habits, givings, misgivings, truisms and dogmas based solely on what we are taught. Tell you what TMan, my cousin went to a hindu shop to buy groceries and on approaching the counter he met a little boy. He asked to be served and then the little boy ran to the back, called out his dad and said “Pa a nigger out front”, he did not say “a man is out front” or “somebody at the counter” he acted in a taught manner of expression and feeling. So, TMan, I ask of you, how do you treat with such behaviour? Question – does hinduism teach discrimination based on race, color and creed? The relevant answer to that is – Yes! To deny that the hindu Gita teaches the Brahmin he is born
of intellect, class and privilege is hypocritical. Didn’t Sat Maharaj come to the rescue of Sharma, when the story of him beating his girlfriend at Valpark by stating that he is brahmin or his son is brahmin? That is the reality of teachings that is by nature discriminatory. I may agree that the pundits of this type of doctrine may not say that it is discrimination but the effect t of it is. And this is what you are trying to hide behind. Truth is truth, no matter what form you put it in. Good is good no matter what form you put it in and likewise bad is bad no matter what form you put it in. We CANNOT get into the business of accommodating bigotry in the form of compromise. What Alyssa is doing is “calling a spade a spade” and we all say “hurray” to that.
3. “She crudely portrayed India and by utilizing carefully selected images, examples and events painted a totally negative and despicable picture of India and Indians.” TMan, the Indian is Trinidad has been able, since his arrival to live scrutiny free. Unlike the Indian, the African who labored to build the infrastructure of the country with free labour and remunerations, has suffered endless indignities and negative labelling. If anything can be said of Kamla, it is her hindutva style of management that has compelled greater intrusion into why the hindu or Indian behaves the way he does. Had we not done so, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot because the contrast is starkling and all to invasive not to examine this fact. The African who is mostly christian and the Indian, who is mostly hindu have distinctly different approaches to almost everything.
This is not to say that the African is right and the hindu is wrong, no, far from it but there is commonality of understanding in approaches to how each deal with situations that confront us. The Indian lauded Kamla’s approach to governance whilst the African abhorred it. It is so, because we see things differently. Most of the differences lie in the fact that dogma and doctrine is what divides our thinking.
“4. Contemporary Hindu spiritual leaders are actively promoting authentic interpretations of Hindu sacred texts, affirming that the solution to caste-based discrimination lies in an adherence to core Hindu teachings.” Let me elaborate is little on this fact.
This is acknowledgement by you, YES! BY YOU that the hindu doctrine is the source of hate, discrimination and division. Dr. Ambedkha, an educated and celebrated dalit outside of India (not Ghandi), who was responsible for including in the constitution, changes that would ease the plight of the dalits in India. It was also the British not the Indian maharajas that insisted on it. So the change that you are talking about came into effect by this consciousness, not the benevolence of the brahmins to conceded some degree of decency to the untouchables. Besides, there was never an argument on what is being done by the Indian government to correct such maladies.
Kian, unlike alyssa, your responses are always respectful, even when I sense that you strongly disagree.
TMan, you just don’t get it.
Your posts, with your crafty, cynical, self-serving, amoral attempts at deluding the public, are pointless, unwelcome and a waste of space, just like you and your ilk.
You and your kind don’t get it. You are the SUBJECTS of the discussion, not worthy participants.
You’re not in the witness box, you’re in the dock, all of you.
Alyssa is doing a great job as prosecutor, and your “not guilty” plea is going nowhere.
“You are the SUBJECTS of the discussion, not worthy participants”.
A few words can be very revealing.
Hindu racist or supremacist religious beliefs preceded European/White racism. In fact if you scrutinize history you will see that much of the thesis of white supremacy is gleaned from the Hindu/Indian supremacist belief system. The Nazis in particular borrowed symbols and narratives from the Indian system. The links represent the sacred cow topic in race discussions in the Caribbean, and every effort is exercised to create a facade or covering for it, mostly in the shrill cries of anti Indian racism from many, including the resident practitioners of the strategy.
Indians do regard themselves as white, and in fact the genetic link is unquestionable. The migration from the Caucus Mountains that brought Europeans into parts of the Middle East also took them down to India. Climate mutations over the years obviously created physical changes, but there is one shared historical link that cannot be impeached. The two sources of the world from where racism was developed into an institutionalized feature in the social stratification of Humans can be found in societies ruled by Indians or Europeans. This is not coincidental.
Alyssa,
Your arguments and points are nothing new under the sum and is is actually not a “coherent rebuttal” of the previous point that I made (the same thing you accused me of) and is also full of contradictions.
Firstly, you acknowledge the role that the colonials played in exploiting the divisions between African and Indians, based on the caste system; how pray tell does that negate my point about ‘divide and rule’? That was precisely my point! The caste system is actually a classic example of a social construct as it relates to caste system and culture. So you will not hear any disagreement there either.
Sure the Indians in Trinidad and Tobago are racist and I have not, as you have alluded to in your reply to me, buried my head in the sand. However, we are at a point where we have to work on moving beyond these divisions, or another two hundred years will go by and our descendants will be having this same unproductive conversation.
As for being “paralysed into indecision”, if you say so. I am all for the empowerment of that segment of our population (the dark-skinned, kinky-haired folks) who are lagging behind economically. However, there are very practical ways to go about it. First, from my spiritual vantage point. The black man needs to re-assume the mantle of leadership in his family and his community. As a wise Jewish rabbi told me, “Family is the Centre of all Living and in living you live”. Truer or wiser words have never been spoken. This feminism garbage is what has the black community here and in other places in the mess that it is in.
The second step is to understand the value of money and how to save. Since, discrimination from the banking sector is a real problem, dark-skinned folks have to get their own financial institutions circulate their own money until other folks from other “ethnic groups” get over their prejudices and move forward. In the meantime, I am very much a realist, trust me.
Thirdly, black children need to learn their own history and disavow the demonic hip hop/dancehall culture which will result in destruction of the black race.
To sum up, my original post attempted to look beyond the current socio-political, socioeconomic construct in Trinidad and Tobago, because there must be an ideal that we can all strive towards and I stand by every word that I typed. Race as it relates to skin colour is a social construct, again as is evidenced in the caste system. In the ultimate analysis, it will spell our eventual destruction and we will have none to blame but ourselves.
I have already laid out the steps that the Afro-Trinbagonian community needs to take to achieve stability. These are very coherent and clear in my mind. If you do not believe so, well we can agree to disagree.
I could care less about what the economic threat that Indo-Trinbagonians pose to Afro-Trinbagonians. In this life, there are always people who are going to thwart one’s path and they come in all colours and are from all religious backgrounds. You will be surprised who has been responsible for a lot of my success in life. So I would advise you not to paint everyone with a broad brush.
So, I make no apologies, for wanting to change the tune and do my part to move forward.
Hi, do not mistake my criticism of a mindset to criticism of you “triniamerican”. I think you missed my point…you cannot just “get past” indian racism..that is the point…if your car shuts down for gas…you could turn it into a super f1 vehicle and it still won’t move…the substantive point is to not get into this frame of mind that well let’s all just get along… all these revelations about the racist, narrow minded groupthink among indians towards africans is destructive to societal progress…that’s not something you can wallpaper over with a positive mindset…let’s just come together and move forward…and i don’t think many africans understand or are psychologically fortified enough to deal with…this is real nasty business…the truth is a lot of the racism described here doesn’t r.egister with many africans who didn’t grow up with indians and experience in depth this type of behaviour…and most of them are like as jaishima pointed out Gullible…eat up the fake smiles, needing to believe that ‘we’ can all just “get along”.
you know this is what makes indian racism truly insidious…because it has a rock solid religious foundation and have no intention of changing, they develop a culture interacting with africans with fake humility, smiles and socialization. Then as soon as they get at home…do bring home no nig%×+!
The approach that you put forward is definitely not new under the sun as that was spearheaded by the pnm since 1956..look at where our people are today in terms of disenfranchisement…the H.U.W.I. and now the H.U.T.T. keeping africans out of the prestige faculties such as engineering and medicine as much as possible. Who were the first doctors, lawyers and engineers in T&T? If africans had the same caste mindset that whenever you get in an organization, you squat there and make sure only your kind gets in… if we had done that we wouldn’t be we are today…this is what is done at anything that is of value…look at the land giveaways…we could have done that before 86….did africans do that?
Triniamerican…i appreciate your views and didn’t mean to sound like I was attacking but you see the comments about “coherent rebuttals”, hip hop, family life among africans… i want to be straight up…all those are good points and real factors contributing to problems among africans but i am always suspicious when discussing racism against african people in the most horrid, classless and unflinching ways and somebody joins the discussion to introduce these things…
This is about indian racism, it’s origins and how deep it is, its manifestations….would you tell the jews about their faults while discussing hitler’s reign? No…because it’s out of context and just strange. And if you are indeed african and mean well…a little advice…don’t bring a scarf to a dogfight…i.e. i picked up on your attempt at intellectual snobbing and that kind of posturing makes the issue lose focus and become weak.
i’m not trying to posture as if i’m at diplomatic meeting…this is real talk about serious issues.
Alyssa,
My original response was to the overall thesis of Dr. Nantambu’s article, which was quite mild and conservative in tone, unlike many of his other scholarly offerings on this blog. He some telling statements about skin colour not being a factor in enslavement and I responded to that idea because it was fascinating and is in fact true. Hence, I will not apologize for making my initial comments in vein with the overall tone of the article.
As for your “scarf to a dogfight” comment, I will ask you to refer to my replies on other recent topics in Trinicenter. You will observe that I can be quite forceful when the occasion warrants such a response.
I have to be strategic in my replies because, as you yourself alluded, we are involved in racial high-stakes game where the fight for resources in our twin-island republic is cloaked within the issue of tribal politics. As a younger man, I would emote and launch into strident condemnations of the social ills that I observed.
Given the delicate racial climate in the aftermath of the election, I am simply sensitive to the impact of my words on an already volatile racial situation. I see no need to stir the pot further and it is not my calling
However, I am very skilled in the art of rhetorical warfare and this article represented an opportunity to infuse a different perspective into the attritional racial warfare between the nation’s major races. I did not see the need to rehash everything I have heard and observed since I was a young child.
However, the Afro-Trinbagonians cannot keep reacting to this racism and must arm themselves politically, economically and socially. Since the East Indian descendant in Trinidad and Tobago practices group economics (along with other ethnic groups), the descendant of the African must do the same until we get to the point where people see the inherent evil in acquiring resources at the expense of the There is nothing ineffectual or weak about this position.
Just because I not write forcefully does not mean there is no fire within. Please do not mistake the “diplomatic” and careful nature of my posts for weakness; it is anything but.
I am just learning to choose my battles wisely.
Hi, again, to be fair you are right, although i didn’t mean for you to be forceful or crude ‘triniamerican’ i just meant that….you wouldn’t believe the stories i’m privy to…like about 3 years ago a teacher at happy hill hindu school (Gasparillo, Primary) spat in the face of an african student in class….not ‘at’ but in the face of the student…the media gave barely any coverage…the indian controlled media floated propaganda about her being ‘stressed’ or unstable…but only african students got the indignity….or what about the prestige all boys school in P.O.S. where a teacher let’s call her ‘Mary’ so this is “Mary’s” add math class we’re discussing…although her real name is hindu…anyway we’re talking about add math here children already on the track to serious science studies at univeristy in the future…she lent the students ‘past papers’ to practice on and he apparently in his exuberance, did some working on them…what do u think this indian woman responsible for guiding and shaping the minds of of kids say to him in front of the class…”Why you so black and stupid boy?…eh?…what am i saying?…black and stupid is the SAME THING..!!”
That is very typical indian/hindu behaviour when they think that they can’t be challenged or punished or even exposed publicly…and don’t factor out that that was almost halfway into her (unc’s) term in office…an extension of we time now.
that is hurtful…messing with our kids like that…those are mental scars for life…fortunately another conscious african student got up and told him let’s leave…so they went to the african vice-principal to complain…his response?…”i cyah deal with that…”…so when they went to the local white principal, he led them to the teacher to ‘find out what happened’ suffice to say it appeared to be going in the direction of a dragging feet slap on the wrist and that other boy happened to be the son of a very well known, influential person this is how we found out…anyway…so Brother David Muhammad of the N.O.I. (who by the way has a talk show on 91.9fm from 7-9 p.m. mon to thur…) got involved as a mediator to suggest a solution the caste minded hindu/local Presbyterian same thing was told to apologize in front of school or something like that…anyways after this was done she wasn’t fired or suspended and when she went back to class (the boy was placed in another class) do u know what she said in her first class after returning? “Alyuh doh fine it better now without ‘him’ yeah?”
this was said to a largely local white/Chinese, syrian mix up class to which many replied with chuckles/laughs….you see how dangerous the caste minded are? That is why i say don’t bring a scarf to a dog fight…clearly the way it was handled she saw a weakness which they always notice in how it was dealt with…that is my point…
any decent society she would have been fired, lost her pension and barred from teaching. Also, in canada or the states all the media would have shamed her for months and everyone would know that that behaviour is not accepted. But not so in THIRD world Trinidad…in T&T everyone would have been thinking of the racist teacher’s well-being and career before ‘punishing’ her…now tell me…does this behaviour seem like it’s coming from an innocent, oppressed group (indians) ??
Did what she say have anything to do with eric williams and the PNM?…clearly no, but ahhhh that is how dotish that africans are believed to be and that is what they want you to think!
I would compare the indian community’s problem with racism like an alcoholic and his alcohol….even if he wanted to there is a deep compulsion to drink….or in the case of many indians hating/scorning black skin & africans is like a compulsion they enjoy and couldn’t merely stop by pnm governing well or giving them unfair amounts of land….it is not a political problem in its root…this is thousands of years of this behaviour from parent to child…and unlike european racism that doesn’t have any real religious root…many europeans are at least trying to be different than their ancestors…and speak out vehemently against racism…but indians hah they are much much worse.?
and africans encourage them by pampering them on this issue..i
t is common for if a case like this is vented publicly…there is no condemnation, but a noted strategic silence by indians and all the “independent” groups they control but you hear so many africans jumping out and saying “not all of them so” “i have indian friends and this(racism) have them vex” does this seem fishy to you?
Only africans speaking on behalf of indians to condemn indian racism! But indians by and large either stay quiet and try to spin the issue to hide and obfuscate what was done….”she was just upset” “he (child) was giving trouble” this is my point, if indians hide and protect their group as a group from criticism of their racist actions and thinking, then if africans don’t condemn them and make the issue a priority to fight against, what will happen?
Look at the documentaries and lecture links about how they behave in india….remember in india the caste hindus control everything and this facilitates how india is…so hindus until recently didn’t have the kind of political power they wield…and it is clear they want to use it to change T&T into their homeland….you were warned!
It is the religion and culture…their hearts will not change.
To be fair, again ,i wasn’t being a conventional commenter eh….i didn’t concentrate solely in the context of the issue which is what most people do so you are right
peace
Alyssa,
Thank you for making your position clearer and I apologize for being overly defensive. I guess if the likes of Tman and Mamoo can take pong, I should be able to myself.
As to your concerns about Indo-Trinbagonians, trust me, I definitely have no illusions about them as a collective. Of course I am working towards a world where such incidents such as the deplorable one at the prestige school in POS are few and far between. However, they are not. I have heard enough similar stories and have had my own experiences both in primary and secondary school. Thus I know.
The deeper reason has to do with the manufactured skin colour with all races. Thus, as an ethnic Jew who is also of African descent, I would be called a “cushi” (Hebrew version of the N-word) in Israel. Look at how the European Jews treat their darker-skinned brethren. Of course, in India, the dark Indians have been living in hell on earth for many generations in India.
While we would all like an egalitarian world where all the races can live in harmony, this current world system runs contrary to the system of the Creator and has distorted the Way of Elah (the Creator I serve) to the point where it is literally the spawn of Satan.
So as with all demonic systems, there are people with demonic mindsets, i.e. racial bigotry, ethnic chauvinism, etc, and there is certainly a lot of that on offer in Trinidad and Tobago.
I write the way I do because I have had the opportunity to really see the reality of things as it relates to underprivileged ethnic groups and I can tell you while skin colour is a definitely a consideration (I would be a fool to discount this) the larger issue is fealty to an idea. In this sense, Dave Chappelle’s skit on the black klansman, although an obvious parody, may have a bit more truth in a strange way than Mr. Chappelle himself realized.
There are indeed folks who look like us whose mindsets and attitudes are those of our historical enemies and who would definitely do us harm.
In our local context, the Indo-Trinbagonian population has accused the PNM of political marginalization in the past. Is this really true? To me, if anyone has a right to feel aggrieved is the Afro-Trini living in the Beetham or in Laventille who has been PNM all his life and yet has seen his community neglected. What about Point Fortin? How far has this place developed under PNM rule?
Thus, I do not expect there to be any black messiah who is going to restore our situation. We should not want anyone to give us any fish; we need to learn to fish. The only help I want from the government s the necessary infrastructure in place so that the Afro-Trini can learn to navigate this very challenging modern economy which is indeed quite Darwinist in nature.
What I will say that I have noticed that I have met Indo-Trinbagonians who are quite revisionist and intellectually dishonest in their characterizations of life under the PNM. I have engaged such a devious mentality on this very blogosphere.
From my interactions, the best thing to do is to answer them according to their self-delusions because obviously, many have become blinded to the truth and there is no point trying to tell them any different.
So in closing, our methods may be different, but we both want the African descendants here to flourish and do well, not necessarily at the expense of the other ethnic groups.
I’ve always wanted traction on this issue and I am pleased to see how well Alyssa articulated this issue of Hindu racism. Allyssa, your contention is right, racism CANNOT be eradicated by simply saying “all ah we is one” then return home and expect Hindu racism to be erased. It would never happen. We need to vent the root of the problems – Hindu religion, before taking a clinical look at how it affects us all. There are those who are so used to talking with forked tongue, who will label her commentary racist, but it certainly is not. That is because the African, especially those who are not familiar with The indian communities believe that Hindu thinking is similar to his but that certainly is not so.
The African experience is different from all others. Whilst the indian is also, it brings with it traditions and practices that can be abhorrent to a westernized idealism. The indian idealism is easy for the indian to tolerate but certainly not that way for the African and other westernized cultures. This conversation may not be palatable to some but I do believe that it is healthy and worthy of airing.
Thanks Alyssa for bringing me back down to earth. When I heard Dr. Rowley’s speech on election night, I was favourably impressed by his call for all of us to work together to make this country better.
I feel realistically hopeless now.
Thanks again.
Yessss “BM” i know your community loves the pnm’s politics…after 5 years of unprecedented, blatant racial abuse and ethnocentrism…forcing hindu culture though state media and using the nation’s resources to making hindus and indians alone in large numbers stinking wealthy….here comes the pnm to be for all …
yess that’s the same reason so many racist loved mandela and not his wife…they love martin luther king and not malcolm x….you see racists love to promote role models of the groups they oppress and harm who preach taking the abuse and still pampering and loving the oppressor…
how come israel isn’t asked to embody mandela when they deal with palestine? How come they don’t use mandela’ ideology with Isis? Lol…didn’t all these same leaders go to mandela’s FUNERAL and praise his methods lol…the unc between 1996-2001 and again between 2010-2015 5 years 3 months of giving obscene amounts of land to hindus, indian christians, indian muslims local whites and syrians expect to create a situation in the not too distant future where no matter how educated or upwardly mobile africans are, they will have to rent from hindus/indians (hindu theology /caste/varna)
( Google “Manu Smirti” ) dictates that inferior castes shouldn’t own land, have confidence or be empowered in any way)..so all the africans on T&T which is a relatively tiny island with finite land, will have to beg indians/hindus for a space to live and what does the bible say about the borrower being a SLAVE to the lender? Eh??…that is the plan since the 50’s hindu missionaries from india were travelling to the indian diaspora like T&T telling them that “who owns the land owns the country” while africans are merely contented and feel secure with a fair government…
indians are literally trying to own the country….when this happens the real fun will start…politics won’t matter…they will as a bloc of decision makers dictate to whichever political entity who gets what and who does what…africans must be given large amounts of land for farming and decent living…relocate at least half of east port of spain to central and south where they could breathe with a garden and back yard for kids….my god indians have stolen so much land since even when caroni was open…africans must get from the largest to smallest of government contracts….buy the equipment for them then give them the contracts…kamla did this to our faces for five years…if the pnm follows the rules after they(unc) broke them to place hundreds of indian contractors in business who didn’t even have equipment…if pnm tries to play by the rules africans will be made fools of in the context that most of the indian contractors sucking on the tits of contracts now didn’t work their way up and grow normally, kamla, suruj empowered them and bought the equipment with state money and made them wealthy…
we cannot now say well by the rules so whoever has equipment qualifies NO! And don’t hide it either…thus society must now KNOW Justice!
I expect that the current leadership has the strength and experience to ensure that contracts, jobs, land, and opportunities for advancement are distributed equitably, with suitable emphasis on redressing the imbalances that afflict the African community.
Would you allow for the possibility that at least some Indo Trinis can be good and useful citizens, and work with other groups for the betterment of the country?
Or would you state that an Indo-Trini who is attempting to do so is a racist, hypocrite and double agent?
Do you recommend that all East Indians should stand together as racists,under racist leaders, and be defeated by the Africans, Whites and Syrians in an epic battle of good vs. evil?
Or can you see any room for re-education and integration?
Quick correction,
In my reply above, I wrote “Sure the Indians in Trinidad and Tobago are racist. That line should read, “there are Indians in Trinidad and Tobago who are racist”
I was in a bit of hurry and did not proofread properly.
My apologies
Just thought you guys would enjoy this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/22/asia/india-man-buried-in-road/index.html
I read the article and there was nothing enjoyable about it. It is indeed sad when people use words like “enjoy” to describe their feelings on what is indeed a very sad story, evoking feelings of sympathy and sadness.
But then we are also witnessing the total deterioration of the quality of the commentary on this Blog as people convey their guttural, base feelings categorizing whole groups of people in negative ways, while others endorse these generalizations, laced with name-calling and history rewriting.
Satirical intent missed by you.
Well, well…. so you are “witnessing the total deterioration of the quality of the commentary on this Blog” and here I was thinking that it is so nice that someone came along and shared so much to help inform all on the blog… including you.
If you really care about Trinidad and Tobago I think that you would seriously reflect on what has been shared and see if you can help explain this to other Indians so that they can be mindful of what could be motivating their choices. I doubt that most Indians are fully aware of what fuels their disgust of Africans, especially since the Hindu religion has been so politicized in Trinidad and Tobago. I am aware of a small Hindu sect that claims to be different in Trinidad, but I give them no credence as they stay on the sidelines and allow the racist diatribe to be spewed without publicly challenging it.
Of course, Africans have their work to do but Africans are always blamed for everything.
Why not examine Indian issues and attitudes and help make this a better place?
Can some one explain rawanda to me then
If you are serious, I would suggest that you start here:
“History of Hutu – Tutsi Relations”
https://modernhistoryproject2012.wordpress.com/history-of-hutu-tutsi-relations/
Hahahah here they reach….the belgians created the rwandan problem…they took over the land (colonization) and disregarded thousands of years or tribal lines and organized the society how they felt eroding thousands of years of tribal peace…then they maintained superficial peace by being in control of the different tribes like slaves showing (as many europeans do) preference for which tribe was closest to european in body type (tall and slender, chiseled features) as opposed to short, stocky with rounded features…therefore evoking jealousy…because the preferred tribe got better quality of life and also state sponsored oppression of the other tribe…
so when ‘independence’ came, what do u think happened…do u know the truth behind the spark of the rwandan crisis? Everybody has heard about the famous ‘crush the cockraches ‘ speech on the radio, what we didn’t know was that the person who said that was actually and italian born belgian, who had converted to islam and sided with the oppressed tribe and in a misguided way promoted violence…yep a white, itlaian born belgian national is who sparked the rwandan crisis that everybody loves to remind africans of..
but check this he was given a hefty sentence and then his lawyers got him to transfer his jail sentence to italy…eh heh? As soon as he got there his sentence was suspended and he was freed….
that is the true history of the rwandan tragedy…of course he was not who did the hacking so it wasn’t him to blame for the animosity but he tipped it over with inciting violence
look it up!
btw barefoot intelligence i knew you were being disingenuous and childish but thanks for raising the issue so i could clear the air…speaking of barefoot…remember kamla’s tales of being barefoot to school…well we know why they call her kam-lie but about a couple weeks ago they showed her childhood home on tv news…remember? It was a two storied house and the architecture of that time she had to be well off (brahmins are given money to increase the karma of the giver i.e. they believe giving the brahmin money is good karma…check the book “Death Of A Guru”) so kamla probably only walked barefoot in the bathroom.
What deterioration of commentary on the Blog TMAN. For five years you and Mamoo ranted about the PNM and its constituents racism. It is like the sister pointed out. When the politics of national power changes, you want Africans to limit their perspective to the Martins and Nelsons, after you had spent 5 years enjoyably channeling your Donald Trump.
I we are going to get past racism in T&T, in this world, there can be no sacred cows. There can be no anecdotal fabrications. There can be no redefining and restating of the meaning and origin of racism just to satisfy those who wish to have their cake and eat it too. This is a disease with a source and a history. It is necessary to pinpoint where it started, how and why it developed, and which groups represented the the human repositories within which it was developed.
Why should the analysis of racism proceed differently than the analysis of any other subject. They do not analyze Nazism from a perspective that the targets against whom it is directed and the the repositories need to find common ground to get along. They go back to its emergence in Germany, dissect and disassemble the myths upon which it is founded, and drains any inverse proportional prestige it holds for its practitioners, from it. That is what we are doing with the institutionalized cultural and religiously grounded racism that exist in T&T.
Rodwell, you were a main inspiration for my jumping in…i’ve been riveted between laughter and tears of joy reading your posts. You represent what africans used to do back in the day…..tell em like it is….but somehow we got tricked into believing what is good for the afro-saxon pnm as a political party was automatically good for us…
well look where we are now..if we could get just 10 schools with your ilk as headmaster…if kamla think “18 warriors” heading to parliament…what would they call the students coming out of those schools…think about that and i love your posts…i used to lol i used to just scroll for what you had to say…like the university of woodford square was back in the day…speaking of which..do u know why dr. Williams and the pnm were hated so much besides all the other points i made..??? He was an intellectual giant and warrior who overturned their notions of caste superiority every time he stood in the parliament and they hated him for it….he put them in their place whether pdp, dlp, whatever…he didn’t run and hide or apologize or give into demands because he was called racist…he stood tall…that mindset is rare nowadays …keep strong!
I wonder how PNM government officials like Deyalsingh, Avinash Singh, Rambarat, Khan and Al Rawis would react to this diatribe being produced by alyssa ,(Selwyn Cudjoe)?
I wonder why some contributors on this Blog feel so threatened by such a small (18%) Hindu group in T&T?
If you live in T&T you would realize that Indians and Africans do not go about their daily lives continuously conscious of caste or class, at least not the people I interact with or are employed by my family.
Although some of alyssa’s historical recollections of caste in India are accurate, she makes too many generalizations about Indians globally. Surely she realizes that a Hindu agenda will never succeed in T&T and I have said this many times before. I am a strong advocate for my people, not for Hindus only. T&T has approx. 40% Indians, only half of those are Hindus. I stress again that political power is secondary in the Indian community. The emphasis is on education, family, financial power, entrepreneurship and wealth creation. These are worldwide goals in the Indian diaspora and no apologies are required.
Hahahahah if i’m Dr. Cudjoe, you are either Kamla, Sat or Anand lol…
Tman, thanks for raising this…it actually doesn’t matter what they think…those names are not a big stick over MY head to backstep for FACTS…they are the politicians you like…”wah wah wah alyssa say so and i demand you tell her to stop…”
Tman i would love for you to get this issues to more people….bring it out in the open on a massive scale and let the seeds of truth be planted…you see tman in your fantasy world all that happened in the last 5 years and 3 months would have no blowback, africans would just continue along ignorant of why kamla, anand, suruj, devant, cunilal et al behaved the way did they did….
tman what about all the racist hatred poured on Dr. Rowley and african people since the elections results were announced? Eh? Ask deyalsingh et al what they think about DAT…
in fact all the racism that the unc government did, i want you to ask those same indian pnm members what they thought about it and why didn’t they vocalize their supposed disgust…?!?! That’s another issue how come africans from unc are so eager to defend even the slightest even fake infractions against indian people…but indians in general even the pnm don’t do the same…? Why is that?
You see africans are mandated to prove their love for the indian community by attacking other africans like dogs especially in the political arena but like i said…did anyone ever hear of any indians, especially in the pnm publicly vocalize their disgust for the behaviour and racism in the last 5 years?
No…not a word…so tman…good luck with that
In fact, i wonder what the same people would think about your postings for the past 5 years, 3 months? Do you think they would like them? Tman, remember Bhose Sharma, who led the ‘protect the balsier’ group and backed penny to run against Dr. Rowley during the ill-timed internal elections? Bhose sharma is quoted as saying that if rowley is a bull, he is a matador (spanish for killer/murder) and he will “deal” with rowley? Remember that Tman? What about when chadra bhose sharma said that Dr. Rowley was making the PNM unwelcome for indians? What about that tman…Bhose Sharma a ‘member’ of the pnm insults the leader and raises racism as a trump card. Now that has to stop…imagine hindus getting bolder and bolder in accusing Dark Skinned Africans of being ‘racist’ there must be a different definition of racism in the indian community (i know why) to what africans and others understand is racism…
you see for a looong time the africans have spoilt the indian community into controlling the discussion of race and racism in T&T…ever notice that? So if we were to follow the sqeakiest wheel, an imbecile would think that (coincidentally) dark skinned africans (not the light skin ones) are the most hateful, evil racists on this earth and indians are so culturally loving of africans (especially the dark ones) google “Hindu American Foundation Human Rights Trinidad) read the pack of lies being spewed about hindus being “economically (lol), socially and politically victimized…there is even my favourite quote of then minister devant and sat saying that the only jobs where indians are over represented is in medicine, law and engineering because those are BASED ON MERIT!,,,alyuh hear lie? Dat is Lie…and coincidentally this ‘report’ was released during the year of the S.O.E. 7000 plus africans were locked up on a whim for 3 months, national footballer, radio talk show host, fathers home from work, child support disputes all in inhumane makeshift cells ALONG with different level hardcore criminals…
also, get this the hindu american foundation report was released in 2012, the president of that group was invited and came to T&T at a U.W.I. conference on The Indian diaspora within one month of kamla getting into office…coincidence? So hindus as a community could vilify african people internationally, but when ever africans speak out on the nasty behaviour that we are exposed to whether it be T&T, canada, the u.s….it is Diatribe….
tman you better start buying lemonade in bulk boy…cuz i now start….it going to be hotttt!
There are 3 kinds of Indian racists:
1. The ones like Sat Maharaj who are open about it.
2. The ones like TMan who twist and turn, dissemble and deceive, and deliberately conceal their racism in order to spread their poison more effectively.
3. And, the most execrable kind: those who have convinced themselves that they are not racist.
This kind will attemnpt to mix with Africans and become active in spaces such as public institutions, NGOs and even churches, where some will provide what appears to be dedicated service. By doing so, they provide cover for their more racist bretheren. They may completely dissociate themselves from any outward semblance of Indian culture and society.
They will attempt to socialize with Africans on a faux- equal basis. At times, they even marry or cohabit with Africans and procreate (diluting African bloodlines). They may go to their graves in the delusion that they are non-racist, and have church funerals with African acquaintances and even their mixed children mourning them.
This type can truly pull the wool over African eyes and are the ones who must be most vigorously called out and rejected, whenever we see them in our workplaces, churches and even our extended families.
” churches”,”our workplaces, “our extended families”.
Ironic, from someone who is making a racism charge. You know, it is time to leave this blog.
I guess according to Trevor, it is also “our country” and we are temporary guests who should behave ourselves.
Good luck with that. This is a waste of my time on people like you. I am moving on. Hopeless.
Don’t quit yet, any debate needs 2 sides. You’ve shown great stamina over the past few years at least.
Maybe take a week off and rejuvenate!
Basically you’re saying that any “integrated” or “assimilated” indian is a presumed closet racist and needs to be shunned?
Google the express article titled “Trinidad 50 years of independence” by an “assimilated indian” and listen to what she a college professor says about her fellow african countrymen during our 50 year of independence celebration.
What “they” are saying is that every Indian is by nature a racist and hates Africans. Many of us of all races who live in T&T do not share that evil sentiment, even though we admit that a small percentage do not accept our definition of T&T nationalism.
“They” are also suggesting that Indians do not have the right to govern. The PP never considered itself an Indian coalition. The fear campaign worked.The no-Rowley campaign failed.
If one examines the new government and its appointments to State boards, one would notice a fine balance of the races of T&T, even within the Cabinet.
Obviously, the elected government and its Leader do not hold the same racist ,narrow views of race in T&T and is responding to the population realities of the country.
People like Alyssa will be ignored by most nationals. Her fear mongering, name-calling, generalizations, accusations,biased opinions and racist mutterings will be sale-able to racially bruised US expats, but will fail in T&T.
Good points. However, #3 “Diluted Bloodlines”…i am not concerned with diluted BLOOD but rather, diluted CONSCIOUSNESS! You see when africans have children with other ethnic groups, the baton of consciousness is often put in the closet, whittled down or thrown away. This means that the child will have the features (light skin or straight hair) to allow them to ‘fit in’ with other ethnic groups and never experience the scorn and hate that one of their parents and other africans go through. This is why you have so many africans calling themselves “mixed” nowadays rather than african. IT is a political position that says they don’t want to identify with their african side’s PROBLEMS as long as it doesn’t affect them. THIS is MY issue…africans should educate and inculcate their children, especially those from unions of other ethnic groups a sense of history and self to stand up against racism…ESPECIALLY against dark skinned, kinky haired africans! Pure africans i the diaspora is an illusion…the vast majority of us have european, indigenous and chinese and to a lesser extent indian….remember our enslaved ancestors were intermingled with the indigenous peoples and were both oppressed by the spaniards. The indigenous people weren’t all ‘disappeared’ they were assimilated into the african enslaved. The chinese were in T&T an entire 40 years before the indians came and they also assimilated. Look at what we call ‘indigenous’ in t&t…all of them clearly have african and spaniard (european) ancestry but they consider themselves ‘caribs’. They are in fact african, european and indigenous. In fact a large portion, if not all african trinidadians have indigenous people ancestry…not just those in santa rosa. However, they lay claim because they have maintained the culture and way of life more than their families who moved out and intermarried over the centuries. All of latin america, from mexico straight down to brazil etc. have this mix. Where do you think latin bone structure, rounded features, dance & music came from? However people tend to ONLY use skin colour and hair as the only markers to determine what ethnicity one is…look at the tv show “who do you think you are?”
I “enjoyed”, not quite the word I want to use, Alyssa’s & Tman’s many back and forth comments. But we must admit Alysa has some solid points… Anytime Black people win a victory against another race we are pressured into forgiveness, reconciliation, the past is history, lets move forward B…S….(Madela, Mugabe -back in 1970/1980. Look at Haiti 150 years after they beat back France, they still will not allow the place to move forward, and at the US response to 9/11, no forgiveness there, They are still creating havoc and divisions in the middle east to ensure they fight with each other.
I recall Eric Williams being asked back in the 50’s about Black folks linking up with the Continent to further the interest of Black people in T&T, Williams response was. “You know Trinidad is not a homogeneous population like Barbados or Jamaica” Yet at independence the indian Counsel to TT was asked how can Indians move up in this society. His reply was MAke a lot of children, get land , get the children to become doctors and lawyers. So said so done , Williams and the PNM had the chance to build a solid foundation for our people but did not. Look at the Present US president Obama, He has done nothing for the Black community in the US. As a people we seem to always want to please everybody else at our own expense. We are probably the only racial group that does not want the world to be race based. Black people forced white America to uphold their laws that allow all to be equal, did Black people benefit??? there are more indian, middle eastern and other Asian intellectuals living in the US as a result of Black resistance, did any of those groups support Blacks in their struggle, Do they now support the fight against police brutality?? Yet all around us, Chinese look after only chinese, whites come to TT and live amongst whites, indians go to Fiji, Mauritius, Kenya, Tanzania and live and support other Indians, yet when we attempt to do same we are condemned, as Mugabe is, as demonic, evil, dictators. I believe there is a latent fear that a strong Black nation with a strong Afrika will take over the world as all known resources for a modern economy exists in Afrika. Lets forget about the other races and concentrate on building a strong Black presence and take on the world. We are a courageous, resilient people, our only failure so far is to cooperate for the common Black good. Lets get past this and develop and implement Solid Black policies and links with the Motherland, she is waiting!!
There is a world of constant labelling of the black man to keep him in check. He is everyone’s enemy because for some untold reason they are afraid of him. As you mentioned, when anyone else fight for their dignity, it is a cause celebre and that fight is just and necessary but when the black man fight! there is every reason to denounce it as
unjust and futile. The history of labelling have put us a part man part beast, uncivil and many other adjectives that would only qualify us to be amongst those in the animal kingdom. Jack Johnson became great because the white man wanted to prove his superior physical conditioning by taunting him in the boxing ring and a sure case of white superiority. But Jack Johnson proved them wrong. Muhammad Ali was chastised and persecuted because he refused to fight a war that he quite rightfully thought was the white man’s war to fight and not his. History proved that he was right after all. The history of shows that you cannot have superiority without having one to be inferior and the white man and those imitating him have used every reason to justify the black man’s inferiority to the white man. A few years ago, I read an article in the well respected New York times, written by a white reporter on racism. On conceding what he considers the ‘perfect man’, he stated that such a man must have a white man’s head and a black man’s body. Sounds familiar! doesn’t it? It is the same concept as the gita’s description of the brahmin. The brahmin was created of the head whilst other inferior beings were from others parts of the body. That remains the teachings of the hindu in Trinidad and Tobago. Even though they were all dalits on arrival in Trinidad and Tobago, they quickly assumed the roles of their ‘superiors’ – the brahmin and the African became their ‘dalits’. No other leader has been as bold as Kamla Persad Bissessar to inject this kind of thinking on us. She is surprised that we rejected her because we have been told that she is ‘popular;’ and therefore deserves to be ‘our queen’. She better start getting used to being only Opposition Leader as long as they intend to keep her in parliament. It is not for us to care whether TMan and company are unhappy with us finally finding out what inspires the hindu to be so ungrateful. We have to continue looking at his doctrinaire conditioning and MUST let them know that we are no longer willing to accommodate hindutva as the creed with which the Indian governs. No sireeeeeee!
” Even though they were all dalits on arrival in Trinidad and Tobago, they quickly assumed the roles of their ‘superiors’ – the brahmin” KIAN
This lie is often repeated on this blog by its many contributors who feel the need to masturbate their own egos and take comfort in rationalizing their inferiority and lack of progress.
Many of us have not only traced our roots but have visited India to find our ancestors. We do not have to prove anything to anyone. Every “caste” was represented, especially on later voyages. As a matter of fact 1% of the arriving indentures were Christians.
TMan, if the right conditions exist, you will even try to prove that you are really a brahmin from your ancestry. I always tell you that you always justify exactly what I am saying and this is exactly a case of that. You reply is not only confusing and represent a lack of identity, you are even trying to emphasize that you are christian.
The information which I am presenting was not pulled out of a hat. The details are well documented.
Actually Man either you are ignorant, dishonest or BOTH (not the first time). The term ‘caste’ is an english interpretation of the portugese word “casta” which they used to describe what they witnessed when they colonized india (goa). The hindu word is either Varna or Jati when characterizing status, rank or gradation in the caste system. NOW, many get confused because of the seemingly infinite levels but let us distinguish between caste and subcastes … Brahmin, ksatria & Vaisha are uppercaste which is one group. HOWEVER there are thousands of castes (subcastes) within the brahmins, within the ksatrias and within the vaishas…therefore there are brahmins who are superior to other brahmins and the same goes for ksatrias vaishas but ALSO in the low castes (Shudras) and the NO castes (Untouchables/Dalits). An example of this is, although the untouchables are 1 group i.e. no castes, there are thousands of gradations WITHIN the untouchable group e.g. the untouchable who hunts and eats those huge rats in the ground are considered either superior or inferior to the untouchables who are assigned to cleaning up uppercasts’ Faeces with their hands and transporting it…and yes, they do squabble amongst themselves on who is ‘superior’ and who is ‘inferior’ to the uppercastes and even the lowcastes…so essentially the word Jati/varna/caste can be looked at as ‘relative to’ the group you are in. An even more relevant example is that both Dr. Rowley & Patrick Manning & George Chambers belong to the group ‘descendents of african enslaved’ in reality; socially they are recognized within the racist minds as different…George Chambers was more european looking than Patrick Manning who in turn was more european looking than Dr. Rowley…see? So even though the indians that came to cut cane were all untouchables…some were ‘in charge’ and considered inferior or superior to one another… so when even indians use the term ‘caste’ as in different ‘castes’ came….it is a deception or ignorance or both… Also the children of brahmin rape are also untouchables like the mother but are acknowledged as “children of god (brahmins)”… they have higher status & lighter skin/features but are still UNTOUCHABLES!
Also remember the institutionalized fraud…many labourers adopted brahmin status from either the boat (Boat Brahmin) or because their mother slept with the white plantation owners and overseers they got light skin and were adored within the hindu community & encouraged to become pundits… remember they would have officially been given the mother’s husband’s name and raised as their own…Many indians nowadays site the skin and features of some indians as proof of upper caste ancestry without acknowledging these inconvenient truths (Dishonesty/ignorance of the truth).
There are other factors…there are several different junctions in ‘indian arrival’ between 1845 and today…not all indians are descended from ONLY ancestors who came in 1845….up until 1917 indians were coming here to cut cane…so not all are from as far back as 1845… and after indentureship, many indian businessmen came to T&T they never cut cane in their lives…they assimilated into the light skin blacks, chinese, syrians and local whites…and of course the wealthy indians…Lastly…Adoption…i know of at least three indians who adopted their children in Pakistan & India in the 70’s (1 muslim family, 2 hindu families) and claimed them as their own offspring…these were upper middle class & had the means to travel & adopt…so these features were injected into the indian community. So technically there are uppercastes in T&T, but they didn’t come to cut cane…If that is your lineage you are Untouchable descended.
Also Diplomats… all the ambassadors to T&T from India are & have been Hindu Brahmins (real)…many of these diplomats and businessmen may have ‘outside’ children that are absorbed into the Indian community….I have a cousin whose father was a gujarati businessman who had a relationship with an aunt, used her & then left her behind with the child when he returned to india (reality) this was in the late 60’s…i know of at least 4 other cases like that…they were absorbed & are part of the indian community to this day.
Assumed the roles of Brahmin means, arriving indentured Indians saw Africans and immediately exalted themselves socially and ethnically over them. In other words, they behaved exactly as the British predicted that they wood. That is to say, by mirroring the same racist antipathy for Africans as the People who brought them to the Caribbean, arriving Indians assured the British they would never have to worry about a coalition between Indians and Africans to threaten their hold on power in the Islands of T&T, and on the mainland in Guyana.
No you do not have to prove anything. We have formed conclusions based on facts that we present, and which are incontrovertible. Indians came from a social and cultural belief construct that people were superior or inferior based on their color and hair texture. Dark Skinned people in India, especially those with tightly curled hair face the greatest discrimination. In fact so primitive is this discrimination that the national administration treat the people of the Andaman islands as though they are creatures in a zoo, and have a commercial project going where tourist are shepherded in to gawk at them.
When one examines the history of the world, groups that are more likely to be racist are those with long cultural and religious beliefs based on human superiority and inferiority. So this is not a guess work something. Indians were brought in as a replacement labor force by the British because they represented the one group in this world with ideologies about race that was parallel with that of the British.
The reason why the British did not initially enslaved Indians is because of that recognition, and the understanding that these two groups came from the same single mutational source, and behaviorally and psychologically, they were essentially the same. So when the time came for allies after those pesky Africans refused to become conditioned to the European caste system, they naturally brought those who had longer connection and entrenchment with this system, than even them.
All new immigrants to the US outperform and advance quickly, not only Indians who top the income statistics in the US. The question you should be asking and searching for answers for is why are so many African Americans unable to accomplish the same.
You should also examine the reasons why Africans in T&T have not progressed at the level which you complain about and expect.
The time of many on this blog, who are mostly foreign based, affected by discrimination in their host countries, would be better spent in efforts to improve the lives of their own, instead of using Indians as the excuse for their condition.
Your post offers half of the story. You are right that individuals of East Indian descent are doing well. However, the United States represents a different sociological context altogether and your post fails to take advantage of the broader context.
As for Trinidad and Tobago, I will say that the underachievement of Afro-Trinbagonians was not always the case. In my father’s time (1945-1970), the Afro-Trinis were indeed in the educational and professional ascendancy, with the majority of scholarship winners being of African descent.
Distinguished citizens such as Wendell Mottley and Euric Bobb were excellent scholars and athletes, especially Mr. Mottley who can boast of an Olympic Silver Medal. Individuals such as the current Prime Minister is also a scholar in his own right and has two daughters who are prospering in their lives. The current problems with Afro-Trinis is that there seems to be a generational disconnect between the Black Power generation and the post-Black Power generation. So yes, I will concede that many in my class have fallen into mediocrity and apathy.
However, that can change, so I would not be too boastful for too long.
Also, I will never apologise or having lived abroad. It provided me with the opportunity to broaden my perspective in life and really see how foolish and myopic the whole notion of racial one-upmanship (as evidenced by your immature comments) really is.
In all of the getting by the East Indian community, there is still an appalling lack of understanding and context.
Regardless of whatever you may believe, we are all in this together and divisions will ensure that we will ultimately fall.
Most of my teachers were learned Black scholars. (High School 1958-1961)
Most of the top athletes were black and that is still a fact today.
There is also a large, successful Black middle class in T&T.
The difference is that people of Indian ancestry believe that they have a moral obligation to provide for the next generation, thereby creating wealth for succeeding generations. If I come across as boastful, that is not my intention. I am not apologizing for being materialistic.
The Problem is that TMAN never wondered how some of the Africans who supported the PP in its win over the PNM 5 years reacted to his and Mamoo’s five years racist diatribe on this blog. I know, I use to draw it to their attention. Their claims that black people were the recipients of special economic privileges during the years the PNM in power when anyone with a brain would look at wealth and ownership in T&T and laugh. Their reducing of every criticism of Queen kamla as racist, when they spent the entirety of their time criticizing Eric Williams, Patrick Manning and Rowley.
Trevor nailed it when he categorized TMAN as someone:
who twist and turn, dissemble and deceive, and deliberately conceal their racism in order to spread their poison more effectively.. I have been using the term “deceit” to describe him for more than 4 years. For people like TMAN, their prejudiced is subsumed in their mythical belief that they are racially superior to people of African descent. In that context, any African, any black man who do not “recognize”, who do not accord them that inverse proportional ethnic ego inflationary prop, is being racist.
Rodwell….whenever i see that you have a lengthy post i try to get a snack to thoroughly enjoy every word of it!
There reasons why African Americans have not progressed comparatively with Indians for example, is because they did the lifting, they made the sacrifices, and they labor under the consequences of that effort which in many ways retard their progress. I mean if they had spent their time fighting just for rights for themselves, and not giving a shit about those other people, they would be better off in the US. After all, from traffic lights to blood transfusions, their ability to invent such technologies while under severe oppression and educational restrictions is evidence that given a level playing field, and adopting some of the tribal precepts that exist in all other groups, they would probably own the US.
But let us examine this further. You speak of advancement in the sense of personal enrichment. Africans tend to inculcate values that are more consistent with service than with enriching themselves. That is why, despite the fact that Indians were not enslaved, suffered no disruption in their cultural cycle, one cannot point to any profound pursuit or invention of theirs that was engaged in or produced to benefit human kind as a whole.
Indian progress in T&T had three major advantages. (1) The British saw them as allies because they shared the same racist antipathy for black people, so they got land while blacks were marginalized. (2) Black Governments did not practice tribal politics because if they did, most of T&T would be owned by blacks. Indian Governments and agencies where Indians had control always practiced tribal politics.
The disadvantage of black people, is that although they are probably the most prolific consumers, they are not racist. They do not allow race or ethnicity to influence how they spend their money. Anyone can enter their communities and do business, and expect that race will not work to their economic detriment.
Where in this world will you find a nation run by Indians that does not discriminate against blacks. Indians, whether in the Caribbean or elsewhere, flock to majority black nations because they know that they will face no prejudices there. The problem, as we see in the complaints of Barbadians and Antiguans, is that many of these Indian migrants attempt to practice the same level of racism in those black nations where the run to seek economic succor, as they would when they were in their own majority bailiwick.